"Wop" in 1908?

Fri Apr 30 01:10:10 UTC 2010

Re: guinea=Italian and guesses

5 Dec 1889, _Bismark Tribune_ courtesy of Geneology Bank.

A story about organ grinders in NYC and the new law(forbidding the playing
of hand organs on the street) that caused most of them to leave the city.

It starts out saying this hits the poorest Italians, and then shows a line
drawing of one such organ grinder, under which is "A Guinea."  It goes on to
say "...an organ or piano grinder is known in the vernacular as a "Guinea."
They derive this title from the fact that it was formerly the custom of the
newly landed Italian emigrants to buy a guinea pig as soon as they landed in
this country to fatten for the table.  This custom prevailed to such an
extent that it was a common sight to see an Italian coming up Broadway with
a pig under his arm, and so the boys in the rougher locality came to call
the "Guineas." "

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Lighter" <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 18:57
Subject: Re: "Wop" in 1908?

> 1884 Joshua S. Lawrence, "The Italians of New York," _Ballou's Monthly
> Magazine_  LIX (May) 453: The Italian language...has given rise to the
> nickname applied to the Italian women when speaking of "Guineas," as the
> sounds emitted by them are similar to those made by guinea-fowl.
>
> 1887 _Brooklyn Eagle_ (Sept. 5) 4: Louica...showed fight and called Bianca
> a
> guinea. Bianca drew a revolver and discharged...two shots at Louica.
>
> So people were reduced to wild guesses as early as 1884.
>
> JL
>
> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: "Wop" in 1908?
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I'm stumped by "mattress" too.  Bustles were out by '08, though that
>> would
>> have been my guess.  Anything earthier would presumably have been taboo
>> in song from a prominent publisher like Witmark.
>>
>> Other than that, no suggestions.
>>
>> Walking like a "kangaroo" may humorously imply a springy step. Maybe.
>>
>> I wonder if Brockman inspired Chico Marx.  See photo on the cover of the
>> sheet music.
>>
>> JL
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Baker, John M. <JMB at stradley.com> wrote:
>>
>>  > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > -----------------------
>> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:       "Baker, John M." <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
>> > Subject:      Re: "Wop" in 1908?
>> >
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >        What do the lyrics mean when they say that his ex-girlfriend has
>> > "got big mattress and a blond-a curl"?  Presumably it's not the literal
>> > meaning of "mattress."  I'm also a bit bemused to see the assertion
>> > that
>> > she "walk joust like a big Kangaroo," in a context that seems to imply
>> > that this would be an attractive thing to do.
>> >
>> >
>> > John Baker
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>> > Behalf
>> > Of Jonathan Lighter
>> > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:54 PM
>> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > Subject: Re: "Wop" in 1908?
>> >
>> > James Brockman's novelty song, "Wop, Wop, Wop!" (N.Y.: Witmark, 1908
>> > [but
>> > actually copyright Feb. 3, 1909]) may have helped popularize the word.
>> >
>> > Acc. to the N.Y. _Eve. Telegram_ (July 29, 1909)  (findable here if
>> > you've
>> > got lots of time:
>> > http://www.fultonhistory.com/Fulton.html<http://www.fultonhistory.com/Fu
>> > lton.html>
>> > ),
>> > it was "one of the quaintest Italian novelty songs of the many that
>> > have
>> > been offered to the public the last two or three years. It is by no
>> > less
>> > a
>> > person than Mr. James Brockman [1886-1967: ed.], the well known writer
>> > and
>> > composer.
>> >
>> > "The story, told in a serio-comic way, tells of the troubles of an
>> > Italian,
>> > whose feelings are injured by the various nicknames given him in this
>> > country, and deals with his efforts in trying to prevent being called
>> > first
>> > 'Dago,' then 'Guinie,' and last of all, 'Wop.'
>> >
>> > "Mr. Brockman has set the words to a tuneful and pleasing little melody
>> > that
>> > makes it a particularly bright song for a part of the social
>> > programme."
>> >
>> >  Check out the lyrics. They imply that "wop" was something new:
>> > http://lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/ihas/loc.natlib.ihas.100004968/pageturner.h
>> > tml?page=2&section=&size=640
>> >
>> > JL
>> >
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
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>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
>
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