"the apocryphal HDAS III"

Tue Aug 3 17:55:57 UTC 2010

Judy and Dave: It's mere impressionaism, but I too have long felt that the
average well-educated Britisher can write more interesting, more supple,
more subtle prose than his or her U.S. counterpart. (I don't know about
Canada.) I know that I mentioned it to a colleague ten years ago.

Perhaps it's due to the British educational system.  Those who wind up in
positions where superior writing is valued have had more longer, more
intensive training in turning out just that sort of writing.

JL

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "the apocryphal HDAS III"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> As a kid I never heard a word of Briglish in news media (perhaps in war
> movies) until the Beatles invaded (still a fave).  Now it's all the time in
> news media.
>
> With 70% of native speakers living in USA, looks like USA spelling is
> getting its share: See below.
>
>
> Raw google hits in millions
>
> color 188     20%
> colour 756    80%
> total 944    100%
>
> program 256     20%
> programme 1030  80%
> total 1286     100%
>
> center 620      36%
> centre 1120     64%
> total 1740     100%
>
>
> UK is doing very interesting things with synthetic phonics instruction in
> schools, highlighting that letters stand for sounds.  Perhaps that will lead
> to English spelling improvement on all sides of the ponds.  But that's a
> tough nut to crack.
>
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>
>
>
>
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Dave Wilton
> > Subject: Re: "the apocryphal HDAS III"
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Another anecdote:
> >
> > Back when I was engaged in multilateral arms control negotiations,
> whenever the delegations in whatever working group was meeting had an issue
> with wording in a draft document, they invariably turned to the British
> delegation for help, not to any of the other native-English-speaking ones
> (Canada and Australia were also regular participants). As a nod to
> inter-allied amity, the US delegation never objected to this, other than the
> occasional good-natured jibe about how we spoke English too.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
> Of Judy Prince
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 3:15 AM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: [spam] Re: "the apocryphal HDAS III"
> >
> > "The EFL markets around the world do know which English they are being
> > taught
> > and to a surprising extent they prefer the British variety. I was
> co-author
> > of a "Business English" EFL series (Macmillan and later Prentice Hall)
> that
> > was published in otherwise identical British and American English
> versions.
> > In Japan, the British version outsold the American version about 5 to 1.
> The
> > rest of the world (outside the US) was closer to 3 to 1."
> >
> > A fascinating fact, David. USAmericans, as well as Japanese, I'm thinking
> > anecdotally, prefer English writers when they want accomplished
> > wordsmithing. Living now most of the time in England, I'm often in awe of
> > the English reverence for words.
> >
> > Judy
> >
> > On 3 August 2010 10:54, David A. Daniel wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > Poster: "David A. Daniel"
>  > > Subject: Re: "the apocryphal HDAS III"
> > >
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > >70% of native English speakers are American versus 16% British.
> > >
> > > >I wonder how many books are printed in Amglish versus Briglish?
> > >
> > > About 30 years ago I pointed out to a Brit that there were far more
> > > American
> > > English speakers than Brit speakers. He replied that there were far
> more
> > > Fords than Rolls Royces, too.
> > >
> > > The EFL markets around the world do know which English they are being
> > > taught
> > > and to a surprising extent they prefer the British variety. I was
> co-author
> > > of a "Business English" EFL series (Macmillan and later Prentice Hall)
> that
> > > was published in otherwise identical British and American English
> versions.
> > > In Japan, the British version outsold the American version about 5 to
> 1.
> > > The
> > > rest of the world (outside the US) was closer to 3 to 1.
> > > DAD
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >: Re: "the apocryphal HDAS III"
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ---
> > > >
> > > > Joel Berson describes the OED's practice:
> > > > ". . . the OED is not especially interested in documenting American
> > > English, as distinguished from British English. If there is an American
> > > antedating or useful interdating or postdating, it may be taken just as
> if
> > > it were British. But if an American quotation is "too near" an existing
> > > British quotation, it will not be taken. . . ."
> > > >
> > > > This is exactly my impression, and I'm not satisfied with it. It's
> been a
> > > few years since I last bothered to check to see whether anything from
> the
> > > word-lists I've submitted to the OED have been included in the OED.
> When I
> > > had checked, I had dependably found that unless one of my quotations
> was an
> > > absolute antedating, they were not used.
> > > > "What did the Yanks know, and when did they know it?" seems like a
> > > legitimate question, whether it's a matter of prize-fighting or Kantean
> > > metaphysics, and the answer to this sort of question could use as
> evidence
> > > the years when the distinctive vocabulary of the field entered American
> > > English.
> > > > The folks in Oxford ought to take note of the fact that there are
> more
> > > Yanks speaking English than Limeys. We demand our rights.
> > > >
> > > > I do not blame or criticize Jesse Sheidlower for this policy, by the
> way.
> > > He does indeed "spend his time in documenting
> > > > American English".
> > > >
> > > > What I really want from Oxford University Press is HDAS III. If I had
> > > that, I'd say to hell with the OED.
> > > >
> > > > GAT
> > > >
> > > > George A. Thompson
> > > > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
> Northwestern
> > > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Shapiro, Fred"
> > > > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010 10:53 am
> > > > Subject: Re: "the apocryphal HDAS III"
> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure where George gets the assertion that "the chief
> editors
> > > > > of the OED aren't interested in documenting American English." My
> > > > > impression is that Jesse Sheidlower spends his time in documenting
> > > > > American English, and that many of the citations in the revised OED
> > > > > come from American sources.
> > > > >
> > > > > Fred Shapiro
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
> Of
> > > > > George Thompson [george.thompson at NYU.EDU]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:16 AM
> > > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > > Subject: "the apocryphal HDAS III"
> > > > >
> > > > > This raises a very galling point: how long do we have to wait for
> > > > > Oxford University Press to bring out the final volumes of HDAS? If
> I
> > > > > thought that the material JL has gathered for it would someday be
> > > > > incorporated in the OED, I might be content. But it's clear that
> the
> > > > > chief editors of the OED aren't interested in documenting American
> > > > > English, except in so far as a word's first appearance is in an
> > > > > American source.
> > > > > Slang is a very useful indication of thought and habits, but it's
> hard
> > > > > to study, without a source like HDAS. 10 years ago or so, Gerry
> Cohen
> > > > > kindly published a collection of prize-fighting slang I had
> gathered
> > > > > from NYC newspapers, 1817-1835. This included a few absolute
> > > > > antedatings of the in-print OED which if they hold up will make the
> > > > > revised OED, but otherwise I expect them to wind up on the
> copy-hook.
> > > > > But the collection was interesting because it showed that the fad
> for
> > > > > prize-fighting among raffish English noblemen passed very quickly
> to
> > > > > the United States, despite the War of 1812 and the embargo that
> > > > > preceded it. Other aspects of cultural and social history can be
> > > > > studied in an extensive collection of dated slang material
> > > > >
> > > > > The OUP needs to stop sitting on the material for HDAS III & IV and
> > > > > produce them, or I will start remembering it in my bed-time curses,
> > > > > along with the despised Bertelsmann House.
> > > > >
> > > > > What can the collective might of ADS-L do to bring this about -- in
> > > > > addition to our collective bed-time curses, of course
> > > > >
> > > > > GAT
> > > > >
> > > > > George A. Thompson
> > > > > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
> Northwestern
> > > > > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Jonathan Lighter
> > > > > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010 7:44 am
> > > > > Subject: Re: Submariner [was "thousand-yard stare"] (UNCLASSIFIED)
> > > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > >
> > > > > > George, see the apocryphal HDAS III. For some reason in the U.S.
> it's
> > > > > > "piss" that the designee cannot pour from the boot. Even if the
> boot
> > > > > > has a
> > > > > > instructions *and* a spout.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just a cultural thing, I guess.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 10:38 PM, George Thompson wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Submariner [was "thousand-yard stare"]
> (UNCLASSIFIED)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ---
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is a put-down that I think I saw in Brendan Behan's
> Borstal
> > > > > > Boy, that
> > > > > > > someone was too dumb to pour sand out of a boot, even if the
> > > instructions
> > > > > > > were printed on the heel.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > GAT
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > George A. Thompson
> > > > > > > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
> > > Northwestern
> > > > > > > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: Laurence Horn
> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 1, 2010 8:56 pm
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Submariner [was "thousand-yard stare"]
> (UNCLASSIFIED)
> > > > > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > At 8:38 PM -0400 8/1/10, Mark Mandel wrote:
> > > > > > > > >I have a pair of Dockers brand pants, less than a year old,
> that
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > "ONE
> > > > > > > > >LEG AT A TIME" printed in red letters an inch high on the
> inside
> > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > >waistband, right front.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >m a m
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Not quite rising to the level of the apocryphal Coke bottles
> in
> > > > > (pick
> > > > > > > > a country) with the legend on the bottom reading "OPEN OTHER
> > > END",
> > > > > > > > but...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > LH
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Dave Wilton
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> I remember a manual for US Army chemical officers
> (officers,
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > enlisted)
> > > > > > > > >> that detailed all the tasks that a chemical officer needed
> to
> > > > > > > > know. The one
> > > > > > > > >> for donning chemical protective gear included instructions
> > > > > > such as
> > > > > > > > "put on
> > > > > > > > >> pants one leg at a time, fly facing front." The only
> > > non-intuitive
> > > > > > > > step in
> > > > > > > > >> the task that actually required some instruction was
> lacing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > chemical
> > > > > > > > >> protective overboots--which were not like standard
> boots--and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >> instruction for that was simply "lace boots."
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> I'm convinced it was written by a captain who had been
> passed
> > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > >> promotion and was exacting a bit of revenge.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >
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> the
> > > > > truth."
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"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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