Why subjunctive?

[David A. Daniel]

Let's not get our knickers in a twist. I think what we've got here is idiom.
Do a Google search for "if ever there were" using the quotation marks to
search exact phrase. (I was going to copy a bunch of the cites here, but
thought it would be easier just to suggest that whoever is interested make
the search.) You'll come up with 2,800,000 hits for the exact phrase, along
the lines of "If ever there were a reason to watch Mad Men..." and 2,799,999
others. There is a less idiomatic - i.e. more grammatically straight forward
- future use of "if ever", as in "If ever you are in the neighbourhood,
please drop by". And other stuff.
DAD


__________________________________________
Save the Earth. It's the only known planet with beer.


Poster:       Ronald Butters <ronbutters at AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Why subjunctive?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

HELP! SOMETHING IS NOT COMPUTING HERE IN MY BRAIN. I don't understand =
how saying "If ever there WAS a place in need of more comedy, and less =
comity" would make the grammar in line with the meaning. I can't see the =
"if" clause as anything other than counterfactual. It still means the =
Senate has too little comedy and too much civility. So the problem, just =
between us wee grammarians, is that the order of abstract nouns is =
reversed. The TIMES writer means (maybe)  "If ever there WAS a place in =
need of more comity, and less comedy."

Or what?


>>>>> it's the U.S. Senate.
On Aug 12, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

>> Given the mention of hypercorrection in that paragraph, I'm guessing =
LH was
>> employng irony.
>>=20
>> Bill P
>=20
> Um, yeah.  Context is everything, or at least something.
>=20
> LH
>=20
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jocelyn Limpert" <jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM>
>> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 10:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: Why subjunctive?
>>=20
>>> Poster:       Jocelyn Limpert <jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: Why subjunctive?
>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>>>=20
>>> "between you and I"?  not "me"?
>>>=20
>>> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Laurence Horn
>>> <laurence.horn at yale.edu>wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>>> Subject:      Re: Why subjunctive?
>>>>=20
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>>>>=20
>>>> At 1:25 PM +0000 8/12/10, ronbutters at aol.com wrote:
>>>>> Why not?
>>>>=20
>>>> Well, the prescriptive rule, such as it is, is that subjunctive =
would
>>>> be used in this context just in case the speaker/writer was
>>>> presupposing a counterfactual situation in the antecedent, in this
>>>> case that there is never a place in need of more comedy and less
>>>> comity, and that's clearly not presupposed. Presumably the author
>>>> believes that there are many such places, of which the Senate is =
the
>>>> foremost.  But just between you and I, the spread of subjunctive to
>>>> non-counterfactual if-clauses is another stalking horse of
>>>> hypercorrection that's long since left the barn.
>>>>=20
>>>> LH
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> ------Original Message------
>>>>> From: Bill Palmer
>>>>> Sender: ADS-L
>>>>> To: ADS-L
>>>>> ReplyTo: ADS-L
>>>>> Subject: [ADS-L] Why subjunctive?
>>>>> Sent: Aug 12, 2010 5:45 AM
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The opening sentence of an opinion piece
>>>>> in today's NYT:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If ever there were a place in need of more comedy, and less =
comity,
>>>>> it's the U.S. Senate.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Bill Palmer
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>=20
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3066 - Release Date: =
08/12/10
>> 06:34:00
>>=20
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>=20
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3066 - Release Date: 08/12/10
03:34:00

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org