Why subjunctive?

[Bill Palmer]

The text of the article does not support Ron's conjecture.

It also contains this phrase, buried a few paragraphs in:

If ever there was a place in need of more comedy, and less comity, it's the
U.S. Senate. (I would have pointed this out sooner, but I hadn't actually
read the whole thing til now)

Bill P
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald Butters" <ronbutters at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: Why subjunctive?


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> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Ronald Butters <ronbutters at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Why subjunctive?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> HELP! SOMETHING IS NOT COMPUTING HERE IN MY BRAIN. I don't understand =
> how saying "If ever there WAS a place in need of more comedy, and less =
> comity" would make the grammar in line with the meaning. I can't see the =
> "if" clause as anything other than counterfactual. It still means the =
> Senate has too little comedy and too much civility. So the problem, just =
> between us wee grammarians, is that the order of abstract nouns is =
> reversed. The TIMES writer means (maybe)  "If ever there WAS a place in =
> need of more comity, and less comedy."
>
> Or what?
>
>
>>>>>> it's the U.S. Senate.
> On Aug 12, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>>> Given the mention of hypercorrection in that paragraph, I'm guessing =
> LH was
>>> employng irony.
>>>=20
>>> Bill P
>>=20
>> Um, yeah.  Context is everything, or at least something.
>>=20
>> LH
>>=20
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jocelyn Limpert" <jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM>
>>> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 10:47 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Why subjunctive?
>>>=20
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>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Jocelyn Limpert <jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: Why subjunctive?
>>>> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>>>>=20
>>>> "between you and I"?  not "me"?
>>>>=20
>>>> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Laurence Horn
>>>> <laurence.horn at yale.edu>wrote:
>>>>=20
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>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>>>> Subject:      Re: Why subjunctive?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>>>>>=20
>>>>> At 1:25 PM +0000 8/12/10, ronbutters at aol.com wrote:
>>>>>> Why not?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Well, the prescriptive rule, such as it is, is that subjunctive =
> would
>>>>> be used in this context just in case the speaker/writer was
>>>>> presupposing a counterfactual situation in the antecedent, in this
>>>>> case that there is never a place in need of more comedy and less
>>>>> comity, and that's clearly not presupposed. Presumably the author
>>>>> believes that there are many such places, of which the Senate is =
> the
>>>>> foremost.  But just between you and I, the spread of subjunctive to
>>>>> non-counterfactual if-clauses is another stalking horse of
>>>>> hypercorrection that's long since left the barn.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> LH
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> ------Original Message------
>>>>>> From: Bill Palmer
>>>>>> Sender: ADS-L
>>>>>> To: ADS-L
>>>>>> ReplyTo: ADS-L
>>>>>> Subject: [ADS-L] Why subjunctive?
>>>>>> Sent: Aug 12, 2010 5:45 AM
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The opening sentence of an opinion piece
>>>>>> in today's NYT:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If ever there were a place in need of more comedy, and less =
> comity,
>>>>>> it's the U.S. Senate.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Bill Palmer
>>>>>>=20
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