Quote: writing (talking) about music is like dancing about architecture (1983) (singing about football 1982) (singing about economics 1918)

[Victor Steinbok]

I missed Garson's original post, but was intrigued by the idea from the
original quotes. One thought that crossed my mind was that the
music/architecture quote might have originated with a French
postmodernist rather than with an English-speaking musician or writer
(at least the architecture version--not the football and economics ones).

I clearly had too much time on my hands today, so I spent some of it
expanding the search. I tried to avoid overlap with Garson's findings
and with those of Alan Scott (with some minor exceptions). Some names
may overlap (Zappa, Monk), but not the sourcing (and not necessarily the
precise language). And I am not advancing any new grounds about the
attribution of the specific quote itself ("talking/Writing about music
is like dancing about/to architecture"). I suppose, I am looking at the
anthropology of the quote rather than its archeology ;-) There is
nothing earth-shattering here, but some things were definitely worth
finding.

Oddly enough, one of the first hits I got in my search came from a
German source and did not fit any of Garson's other types.

http://bit.ly/6Em28y
> A remark of Grillparzer holds true for all of them; he said, "Talking
> about music is like describing a banquet; the listener hears the
> words, but he does not taste the food. To convet the flavor of these
> entertainments is well nigh impossible, and doubly so if one attempts
> a translation."
Imperial Berlin; By Gerhard Masur (London, 1970/71/74; p. 241--the date
discrepancy is actually not--US edition is dated 1970, UK, 1971, with
British paperback version, 1974)

If Masur's attribution is correct, this paradigmatic example of the
expression would have predated the rest by 50-150 years and would have
been originally in German. The attribution is not unreasonable in
general terms--other lines attributed to Franz Grillparzer have a
certain similar flavor to them:

> Science and art, or by the same token, poetry and prose differ from
> one another like a journey and an excursion. The purpose of the
> journey is its goal, the purpose of an excursion is the process.
[Franz Grillparzer (1791-1872), Notebooks and Diaries (1838)]

> Poetry, it is often said and loudly so, is life's true mirror. But a
> monkey looking into a work of literature looks in vain for Socrates.

> Why do comparisons of words and tone poems (poetry and music) never
> take into consideration that the word is a mere signifier, but that
> the sound, aside from being a signifier, is also an object?
[Franz Grillparzer (1791-1872), Notebooks and Diaries (1820)]


Another quote attributed to Grillparzer should resonate well with
contemporary pundits:

> "Every mistake has three stages: first, it is made, second, it is not
> admitted, and third, it's claimed it didn't make any difference anyway."

But I digress...

If anyone may wonder what connection Grillparzer might have to music,
the doubt may easily be put to rest.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/737938
> "To forget that Grillparzer was a musician," says his biographer,
> Ehrhardt,"is equivalent to forgetting that Michelangelo was a poet or
> that Goethe was a scientist."

I don't have full access to JSTOR, at the moment, but someone else might
be able to scan the full text of Gordon's article (from 1916) and see if
there is a similar attribution there. Perhaps a fluent German speaker
can track down the original source as well. (If someone want to share a
PDF copy with me, I'll be happy to complete the reading myself.)

Of course, Grillparzer was not the only German of the opinion that music
cannot be discussed except in practice.

http://bit.ly/90rXsy
> A friend of music and [of] the Sun writes a complaint of the bearing
> of Gustav Mahler against printed comments on music. [...] There are
> many [...] who passionately battle against criticism on the
> performance of music. [...]
> It is therefore somewhat interesting and perhaps instructive that Mr.
> Mahler, being a living composer, should set forth his view that
> writing about music is futile. He holds that music must make its own
> appeal to the hearer.
[NY Sun, January 9, 1910--cited in 1989]

I am not suggesting that Mahler had said anything even remotely
resembling the quip in question, but his attitude easily exemplifies the
cultural background necessary for making the comparison.

*ZAPPA variations*

On the more recent front, one source attributes to Zappa a slightly
different line--replacing "dancing" with "fishing".

http://bit.ly/7vtyc9
> It was Frank Zappa who coined the phrase 'writing about music is like
> fishing about architecture'.
[According to GB, Folk Music Journal, Vol. 1, 1996, p. 232]

Shockingly, this Zappa version gets a replay:

http://bit.ly/5JstlF
The Insider's Guide to Sake; By Philip Harper (1998, p. 58)
> It is also next to impossible to describe flavors and smells in words,
> or to find satisfying English equivalents for the word /umai/. [sic] I
> know what Frank Zappa meant when he said that talking about music is
> "like fishing about architecture."
[It is obvious from the rest of the paragraph that "umai" should have
been "umami".]

*JAZZ*

The Phish Companion cites Miles Davis as the source (likely the single
citation mentioned by Alan Scott). A 2004 essay in Xcp substitutes
Ornette Coleman. Several others skeptically list more than one possible
source, including all the usual suspect (plus Clara Schumann--see more
below).

Attribution to Thelonius Monk can be traced (with some direct citations)
to Krin Gabbard's Introduction to 1995 Representing Jazz
(http://bit.ly/7vtyc9), but even Gabbard is cautious about this
attribution--unlike those who followed who were far less cautious. Scott
mentioned that some people "recall" having seen or heard the Monk
attribution in the 1970s. But there is a source that appears to antedate
Gabbard's.

http://bit.ly/7TVwFw
Native American dance: ceremonies and social traditions; By Charlotte
Heth (1992, p. 145)
> Thelonius Monk is credited with observing that "talking about music is
> like
> dancing about architecture.

*OTHER MUSICIANS*

A 1994 source refers to John Cage, giving a whole new meaning to the
statement.

A 1996 source has David Bowie as the source:

http://bit.ly/8Y2R9N
> Marianne Faithfull quoted to me David Bowie's maxim that 'writing
> about music is
> like dancing about architecture', but overcame her own reservations ...

Of course, musicians with addiction problems don't make most reliable
witnesses. But it does not stop with Bowie.

http://bit.ly/5z29Ij
The Book of Bob: Choice Words, Memorable Men; By Tom Crisp (2007, p. 38)
> Trying to describe something musical is like dancing to architecture.
> --Robert Palmer, 1949-2003

*BEATNIKS and Steve Martin*

The earliest attribution to William S. Burrows that I found is from 1987
(assuming GB is correct) and it's in German:

http://bit.ly/8lQCa8
> In einem Buch über Musik kommt man nicht ohne Musikbeispiele aus, denn
> wie schon der legendäre William S.
> Burroughs wußte: Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.

This is odd. Attribution to Laurie Anderson, in contrast, is less
odd--she does have a piece back from 1986. But Anderson is also
notorious for naming her compositions after quips she picks up from
other people (e.g., "Language is a virus" which she borrowed from
Burroughs). In at least one, possibly two interviews published in 1996
(Scott has 1997), she attributed the line to Steve Martin. I suspect
that Martin did use it some time around 1986 because Anderson is not
alone. (Although I am not suggesting that Martin was the first to use it.)

http://bit.ly/5HVTxv
Donald E. Efron, Journeys: expansion of the strategic-systemic therapies
(1986; p. 62)
> The essence of the dilemma for me is captured in a recent remark of
> the comedian, Steve Martin: "Talking about music is like dancing about
> architecture" (or is like writing about thinking about thinking about
> therapy).

More bizarre is a 1992 attribution to Martin.

http://bit.ly/7nCYu6
And I Quote: The Definitive Collection of Quotes, Sayings, and Jokes for
the Contemporary Speechmaker.
> Writing about art is like dancing about architecture  --Steve Martin

This was further modified in 2007 Templar Code for Dummies (also
attributing to Steve Martin?):

> Writing about art is like knitting about music.

*CLASSICAL MISATTRIBUTIONS*

Several additional sources cite Clara Schumann (e.g.,
http://bit.ly/8xqB7v) --which, of course, would precede even
Grillparzer. Alan Scott, on his website devoted to the quote, mentioned
Jon Burlingame as the source of this attribution. But one recent source
is particularly adamant about it. (Note that Scott mentions Schumann as
"the 19th-century composer and pianist"--and he borrowed the text
directly form Decca line notes.)

http://bit.ly/908ejQ
Clapton's Guitar; By Allen St. John (2004, p. 232)
> "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture," wrote
> eighteenth-century pianist and composer Clara Schumann, although *the
> quote has since been misattributed to Elvis Costello, Frank Zappa, and
> Laurie Anderson, among others. That, of course, has never stopped
> anyone from doing so.

St. John makes a strong assertion but gives no reference for it. But St.
John is someone who may still be contacted for a clarification. To me,
this attribution seems far-fetched. Scott has, by far, the best
explanation for how this might have come about.

*VARIATIONS ON A THEME*

There are more variants on the second clause.

Howard Massey, in the introduction to his compilation Behind the Glass,
wrote (2000),

http://bit.ly/7Ytp36
> Some wag once said that talking about music is the same as listening
> to a painting, but creating a great record is equal parts craft and art.

Boggs & Petrie's The Art of Watching Films (5th ed., 2000) cites someone
whose name is not visible in the snippet.

http://bit.ly/5Lvbrz
> Besides, he notes, "talking about music is like talking about colors:
> the same color can mean different things to different people.

This sentiment is considerably different from the other quotes cited above.

*SEX*

Robert McParland (2003) attributes yet another version of the statement
to Luciano Pavarotti.

http://bit.ly/4Gm8Ak
> "... [Music's] power lies in the region of inexpressible." Or, as it
> has been more colloquially expressed by the operatic tenor Luciano
> Pavarotti, "Writing about music is like making love by chain mail."

McParland's quote resembles another by Terry Allen (a sculptor, I believe).

http://bit.ly/7VbdB5
Landmarks: sculpture commissions for the Stuart Collection at the
University of California, San Diego (2001)
> TERRY ALLEN GREW UP IN LUBBOCK, TEXAS, to become a dramatic
> story-teller and
> pithy aphorist, tossing out lines like "Art is the shortest distance
> between two question
> marks" and "Talking about art is like trying to French-kiss over the
> telephone."

This line appears to be confirmed (it is also cited as "anonymous" in
another half-dozen sources and is used with attribution to Allen in Kirk
Robertson's poem Artistis' Statements).

http://bit.ly/4ABpOz
Arts Magazine (GB date, 1984)
> Allen once said that "talking about art is like trying to French-kiss
> over the telephone."

If the 1984 citation is correct, then the quote has been out long before
that. Is it possible that Martin Mull actually blended the Allen quote
with another and got the "dancing about architecture" version? This is
the line cited by Scott (and quoted by Garson) from Mull's 1995 book:

http://bit.ly/5z29Ij
> I once heard a painting instructor tell his class that "talking about
> art is like dancing about architecture."

*MORE SEX*

An additional reference takes supposedly Pavarotti's sentiment a bit
further--it's also simpler and occurred much earlier.

http://bit.ly/6bi9y9
The songwriting secrets of the Beatles; By Dominic Pedler (2003, p. xxiii)
> Admittedly it was John Lennon himself who once remarked impatiently,
> 'Listen,
> writing about music is like talking about fucking. Who wants to talk
> about it?' But then his very next words are never mentioned.
> 'You know, maybe some people do want to talk about it...'*
> */The Playboy Interviews/, p. 79

And, in fact, the line can be easily found in the 1981 interview!
(http://bit.ly/6tBkNb--although, in this 2000 edition, it's on p. 88)
So, unlike all the other attributions (except Costello's), this one does
have a precise source. I suppose, this version would never make YBQ,
though. (In fact, the last sentence in that statement was "Fucking is
fucking, and not fucking is not fucking.") But this one is certainly not
apocryphal.

Just goes to show--whatever the quote, rightly or wrongly, it will
eventually be attributed either to Lenin or to Lennon.

     VS-)



On 1/22/2010 1:09 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote:
> Thanks, Garson, for this wonderfully thorough and surprising posting!  At a time when it has become clear that there is some real wackiness being posted on this list, it is gratifying to see a new participant contributing material of such quality.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>

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