Q: Translate the "Yanker didel" lyrics?

Wed Jan 27 21:54:12 UTC 2010

You're welcome! I should have (of? ;-)) read your original post more
closely. I didn't realize that this had ben written down by people
themselves very likely not *literate* in Dutch, i.e. unaware of its
spelling conventions, whether they could *speak* it or not. Okay. now
I'm willing to wade more deeply? / deeper? into the morass.

"Yanker" could very well be _jongherr_/jonker. "Didel" might be
_Diedel_, which, in turn, may be a non-standard diminutive of _Dieder_
< _Diedri(j)k_. "Doodel," if it's actually Dutch as it stands, is
spelled _doedel_ and, likewise, "down" is possibly _doun_, _tuin_, or
_tuijn_. Dutch, unlike English and German, doesn't aspirate and, to an
untrained, American ear, /p t k/ can sound like /b d g/. Hence,
_doedel_ could be _toedel_/_toetel_. "Lanter" might be
_lande(n)_/_lander_(?). "Viver" might be _vijf_/vijve(r)(?)_. "Vown"
might be _voun_, if  "down" be _doun_. Or not. And making the
simplifying assumption that "botermilk" is buttermilk, it needs the
minimal respelling, _botermelk_.

IMO, FWIW, "down" and "vown" are truly gibberish and it's also very
possible that Dutch never had a string, _lander_, even in the 17th c.
But, keep in mind that what I've suggested are little more than WAG's
based roughly on the way that the sounds represented in the English
spellings *might* be spelled in the Dutch of Amsterdam, ca.1960.

Further deponent sayeth not.

-Wilson

On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Q: Translate the "Yanker didel" lyrics?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks, Wilson.
>
> At 1/27/2010 12:34 AM, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>You may have to ask someone professionally-trained in Dutch. I don't
>>consider myself at all knowledgeable in Dutch, but this looks, at
>>best, only semi-literate,
>
> As one might see in migrant laborers?
>
>>Ordinarily, it would be simple enough to
>>translate the words using an on-line Neerlands-Engels woordenboek or
>>using one of the many multi-volume dictionaries available at Widener
>>and figuring it out from there.
>
> I did try a few of the words on-line, like dider,
> dudel, lanter, without success.  But considering
> that the spellings may be at least variants (!),
> I didn't have a clue as to what variants to
> try.  And I haven't been to Widener in the
> interim, although I might try tomorrow.  Perhaps
> there is an historical dictionary of
> Dutch?  (Written in English, so I can understand
> it?  :-) )  I am, of course, hoping the words, or
> similar, go back to Cromwell's time, not just the Duyckincks.
>
>
>>The Dutch word for "milk" is spelled _melk_, that for "and" is _en_ <
>>_end_, not _und_, "a" is _een_, i.e. not null, and that for "tenth" is
>>_tiende_. I wouldn't bet money on it, but, these spellings are
>>probably valid for 1855, too.
>
> Perhaps, if this really was a song of migrant
> laborers from Germany, one should look to some
> dialect of German or Dutch, or Frisian.
>
>>I won't so much as hazard a guess as to
>>what the preceding three lines may be in real Dutch, since they look
>>like mere gibberish to me.
>
> It's interesting that the Duyckincks provide an
> explanation of the last line, but not the first
> three.  Is that a hint that the first three are nonsense lines?
>
>>_Y_ isn't even a letter of the Dutch
>>alphabet. But I'm already at the outer limit of my (in)competence in
>>assuming that the spelling, _en_, was already used in 1855.
>
> The  "Y"  I assume is a transliteration by the
> Duyckincks of the Dutch  "J",  intended for their English-speaking readers.
>
>
>>The Duyckincks apparently bought it as Dutch
>>and _Duyckinck_ is as
>>about as Dutch a name as you could ask for.
>>OTOH, there are at least
>>four towns in France named "Gray," but that doesn't mean that I'm
>>competent in French.
>
> Apparently they both were born in New York, but
> Wikipedia doesn't tell me what language they spoke at home.
>
> And for a humorous sidelight, George Long
> Duyckinck may have been thoroughly American -- he
> "was famously credited with inventing the yop - a
> refreshing milkshake drink" (Wikipedia).  The OED
> does not confirm, and those crediting him
> famously seem all to be clones of Wikipedia.
>
> Joel
>
>
>>-Wilson
>>
>>
>>On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>> > ---------------------- Information from the
>> mail header -----------------------
>> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> > Subject:      Q:  Translate the "Yanker didel" lyrics?
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Can someone who is knowledgeable in Dutch translate the following,
>> > alleged to be an ancestor of "Yankee Doodle"?  (The earliest such
>> > allegation that I have found via Google Books is 1855, in the
>> > Duyckincks' _Cyclopaedia_.)  I am also interested if these lyrics or
>> > similar could have been used circa 1600-1650.
>> >
>> > Yanker didel, doodel down
>> > Didel, dudel lanter,
>> > Yanke viver, voover vown,
>> > Botermilk und Tanther.
>> >
>> > The Duyckincks say "in use among the laborers, who in the time of
>> > harvest migrate from Germany to the Low Countries, where they receive
>> > for their work as much buttermilk as they can drink and a tenth of
>> > the grain secured by their exertions."  They say the last line is
>> > "buttermilk and a tenth".
>> >
>> > And "This song our informant has heard repeated by a native of that
>> > country, who had often listened to it at harvest time in his
>> > youth."  If so, the words would at least have
>> been understandable circa 1800.
>> >
>> > Joel
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>-Wilson
>>
>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"a strange complaint to
>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>Mark Twain
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

--
-Wilson
–––
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"––a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
–Mark Twain

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org