"Base ball"
Jonathan Lighter
wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Mon Jul 19 18:12:34 UTC 2010
No ex. of the first printing (1744) seems to be extant. The earliest
"edition" available seems to be the "Tenth," of 1760.
JL
On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Robin Hamilton <
robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM>
> Subject: Re: "Base ball"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Anent Rounders and Baseball ...
>
> The OED (ROUNDER 2a. pl.) has the earliest reference to this as the name of
> a game from 1828.
>
> We can divide Games-Where-A-Ball-Is-Hit-By-A-Stick into three categories.
>
> Hit-on-the-ground [teams] -- lacrosse, hockey, polo, shinty
> Hit-in-the-air [individual, or pairs of participants] -- Tennis
> (original and modern), squash, badminton
> Throw-at-a-hitter [teams] -- cricket and (modern sense) baseball
>
> (Which leaves golf as an outlier, but then it originated in
> Scotland.)
>
> My sense from the various quotations deployed is that both Cricket and The
> Other Game originated as informal activities. In the UK, this division
> became formalised as cricket-with-rules (played predominantly by adults)
> and
> rounders (played predominantly by children and their parents, usually at
> the
> seaside).
>
> The earliest use of the term "base-ball" seems to be the occurrence in
> 1744:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Little_Pretty_Pocket-Book
>
> "_A Little Pretty Pocket-Book, intended for the Amusement of Little Master
> Tommy and Pretty Miss Polly with Two Letters from Jack the Giant Killer_ is
> the title of a 1744 children's book by British publisher John Newbery. It
> is
> generally considered the first children's book, and consists of simple
> rhymes for each of the letters of the alphabet."
>
> The Wiki entry on this reproduces the appropriate page, with an image of
> three players, one of whom is holding a ball and presumably about to throw
> it. This is versified thus:
>
> The _Ball_ once struck off,
> Away flies the _Boy_
> To the next destin'd Post,
> And then Home with Joy.
>
> Thus there is a game which involves running from base to base extant in
> 1744, before the American colonies secede from their parent country, and
> this game is originally called (appropriately enough) "base-ball".
>
> Presumably this ur-game then evolves into the informal family game of
> rounders in the UK, and independently in the US into the formalised game of
> baseball. This would fit with the UK variety of the game not being called
> rounders (as such) till well into the nineteenth century.
>
> Robin
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "David A. Daniel" <dad at POKERWIZ.COM>
> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 5:41 PM
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: "Base ball"
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: "David A. Daniel" <dad at POKERWIZ.COM>
> > Subject: Re: "Base ball"
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > That OED entry about baseball being a version of rounders was clearly
> > needling by the lexicographer/editor/publisher - whoever wrote it and/or
> > let
> > it go through. Brits love to tell Americans that the US national pastime
> > is
> > a UK little girls' game. They do that with many sports. For example,
> > according to the Brits: Pool is dumbed-down, simplified snooker (bigger
> > holes, smaller table); racquetball is dumbed-down, simplified squash
> (much
> > bouncier ball that requires less running-after); US football is rugby for
> > pansies (all the armor, rest times, etc.).
> >
> > Re baseball, I remember reading in one of Bill Bryson's books, that the
> > lexical evidence for baseball is actually older than for rounders, his
> > conclusion being that perhaps baseball came first and it is rounders that
> > is
> > the version. Dunno. George?
> > DAD
> >
> >
> >
> > If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
> > Of
> > George Thompson
> > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 11:36 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: "Base ball"
> >
> >
> >
> > I've been modestly waiting for one of my fans here to mention that I was
> > once famous -- internationally famous -- for 72 hours for finding a
> > paragraph in a newspaper of 1823 referring to a base ball game played on
> a
> > field once part of a rich guy's country estate, in Manhattan, on the west
> > side of Broadway, between Washington Place and Eighth street.
> > This was in 2001. Since then I have sunk back into obscurity, (where I
> > have
> > recently been joined by Paris Hilton -- obscurity is a rather crowded
> > spot:
> > avoid it, if you can).
> >
> > Previous to my 1823 paragraph, the earliest reference to "base ball" in
> > the
> > U. S. was a letter to a newspaper of Delhi, N. Y in 1825, from 9 guys
> from
> > Hamden, challenging the men of a neighboring village to a base ball game.
> > The fact that this letter was from 9 guys does not signify that the rules
> > of
> > base ball then required a 9 man team. There were only 9 guys in that
> > village willing to spend the time to play base ball together, to say
> > nothing
> > of putting up a dollar each as bait to incentivize (ahem) the guys in the
> > next village to take them up on the challenge.
> > Since 2001, John Thorn has found a village ordinance from western Mass.,
> > from the 1790s, forbidding boys to play base ball too near the village
> > public building -- they were breaking the windows too often. But my 1823
> > paragraph remains the earliest reference to the game played by grown-ups.
> >
> > Block quotes from an encyclopedia of the games of the world, compiled in
> > the
> > 1790s by a learned Kraut, which has an entry on the English game of
> > baseball, explaining how it was played (not the rules, since there was no
> > board or association to formulate rules, and enforce them).
> >
> > As for the OED on baseball, please remember that that entry was produced
> > when James Murray was but a youth -- and he was a Limey, at that. What
> > would he know?
> >
> > There are, I think, 4 occurrences of "base ball" in novels from ca
> > 1790-1810
> > by English women, Austen and 3 others, all referring to games played by
> > rather young girls.
> > Does this mean that a game for 10 or 12 year old girls, in being
> > transported
> > to the U. S., somehow became a game for grown men? Maybe. Or it means
> > that
> > only women novelists wrote with the sort of attention to children's life
> > that would produce references to their playtime activities. Or it means
> > that that the neglected and forgotten novels by women were suppressed by
> > patriarchy, and require rereading, to discover how wonderful they really
> > are, while the novels by men of that era are neglected and forgotten
> > because
> > they are no good, and they deserve to stay that way, and their references
> > to
> > baseballwill never be noticed. Or something else.
> >
> > The members of SABR devote themselves to, for instance, assembling and
> > when
> > necessary recreating the box scores of games played in earlier decades,
> > not
> > necessarily in the major leagues. Baseball fans tend to regard them as
> > harmless crackpots.
> > Among the members of SABR are a group who devote themselves to the study
> > of
> > 19th century baseball. The other members of SABR tend to regard them as
> > harmless crackpots. Among the members of SABR who are interested in 19th
> > C
> > baseball are a group who are interested in the prehistory of baseball.
> > The
> > other members of the 19th C clique tend to regard them as harmless
> > crackpots.
> >
> > There are hundreds of references from 18th and early 19th C newspapers,
> > diaries, letter collections, &c to "playing at ball", "a game of ball"
> and
> > other such phrases.
> > In a few cases it's clear that they refer to a bat & ball game. In a few
> > cases it's clear that they refer to playing catch, or to handball --
> > "fives"
> > (though there was a variation of fives which was played using a bat).
> > Presumably, among the rest, there are some -- a few of them, most or
> them,
> > ??? -- which refer to playing a bat & ball game, with base-running.
> > The references in the newspapers from NYC to playing ball tend to come
> > from
> > angry letters objecting to it being done on Sundays, and the writers of
> > these letters weren't concerned to state clearly the rules of the game
> > they
> > are frothing over.
> >
> > The supposition that the game of "base ball" played in New York in 1823
> > was
> > not in principle very different from the game being played in New York in
> > the 1850s is supported by the couple of references from the 1850s to "the
> > good old-fashioned game of baseball".
> >
> > There were two basic variations on baseball in prehistoric times, one now
> > referred to as the New York game and the other as the Massachusetts game.
> > The NY game was played with 4 bases arranged in a square, with the
> > beginning
> > and ending base at one corner. The Mass. game was played with the bases
> > arranged in a square, but with 5 bases, the fifth, the beginning and
> > ending
> > point, being in the middle of one side of the square.
> >
> > A journal, Base Ball: A Journal of the Early Game, has in preparation a
> > special issue devoted to the prehistory of the game, due, I believe, in
> > 2011.
> >
> > GAT
> >
> > George A. Thompson
> > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> > Univ.
> > Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010 1:32 pm
> > Subject: Re: "Base ball"
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >
> >> Is baseball an American game? The modern rules were essentially laid
> >> down
> >> by Alexander Cartwright and his teammates in 1845.
> >>
> >> Is there any early description of the rules of Anglo-Irish
> >> "base-ball"? I
> >> suspect that they were largely adlibbed by the kids who mainly played
> >> it.
> >>
> >> IAC, I'd split the def. into two numbered senses.
> >>
> >> JL
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > 1755 John Kidgell _The Card_ I (Dublin: Sam. Price) 8:
> >> > The younger part of the Family, perceiving Papa not inclined to
> > _enlarge_
> >> > upon the Matter, retired to an _interrupted_ Party at _Base-Ball_ (an
> >> > _infant_ game, which as it advances in its _Teens_, improves into
> > _Fives_,
> >> > and in its State of _Manhood_ is called _Tennis_.
> >> >
> >> > I take the connection to tennis to be facetious. Of interest is
> >> that the
> >> > game was evidently also known in Ireland at this date.
> >> >
> >> > JL
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >>
> >> >>
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---
> >> >>
> >> >> A correspondent alleges the following references to "base ball" prior
> >> >> to 1800. Are these useful? Useless? Presumably unrelated to the
> >> >> American game, but so -- I assume -- is the OED's c1815 Jane Austen
> >> >> quote. They would be at least instances of the use of the phrase.
> >> >>
> >> >> I would look in the ADS-L archives except that there are over 1800
> >> >> messages with the word "baseball" in them -- and that's only since
> >> 1999.
> >> >>
> >> >> Joel
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >There are several references to base ball in England before in
> >> >> >writing before 1800.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >David Block, in his Baseball Before We Knew It mentions them in
> >> >> >several places, most notably in chapter10..
> >> >>
> >> >> [Apparently all the following are taken from Block and Wiles GB,
> > Preview.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >A book intended for children, A Pretty Little Pocket Book, mentions
> >> >> >a game for children in which they struck a ball and ran around
> bases.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Lady Hervey ( aka Mary Lepel) writes of the royal children playing
> >> >> >at base ball in a letter of November 1748. They played indoors with
> >> >> >aristocratic children and lords and ladies in waiting, it is
> assumed.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Then Jane Austen, writing in the 1790s, mentions that her heroine
> >> >> >Catherine preferred baseball to studies.
> >> >>
> >> >> [I read, actually first published in 1817, although probably written
> >> >> 1798-1799 and the OED cites c1815.]
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >In 1875 , in Jolly Games for Happy Homes describes a game without
> >> a
> >> >> >bat but which included running around bases. It was a game girls
> >> >> >could
> >> >> play.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Also mentioned is a quote from a character in a book of 1799,
> >> >> >Battleridge in which a man bemoans being sent to Geneva because, "No
> >> >> >more cricket, no more base-ball."
> >> >>
> >> >> Cooke, Cassandra. Battleridge: an historical tale, founded on facts
> >> >> ... By a lady of quality ... . London, G. Cawthorn,
> >> >> 1799. [Apparently in ECCO.]
> >> >>
> >> >> Joel
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >> truth."
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> >>
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> >
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