Dan Burley/ hep/hip

Tue Jul 20 02:47:40 UTC 2010

I missed the Life article, so I can't speak to that. But, otherwise, I agree.

Well, I have no reason to connect KK & His College of Musical
Knowledge with "hep," but I don't know of any reason not to, either.

Three little fishes
In an itty-bitty pool
Mama-fishie, papa-fishie
Baby-fishie, too
...
And they swam
And they swam
Back over the dam
Ooh! That shark almost ate us
For seafood, mama!

I liked KK's TV show, too.

IIRC, the zoot suit had a drape shape, reet pleats, bluff cuffs...

Damn! Can't remember the rest of it.

Evil-Eye Fleegle was probably the best known white man to wear a zoot suit.

-Wilson

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 6:04 AM, Paul <paulzjoh at mtnhome.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Paul <paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Dan Burley/ hep/hip
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  In the '40s in Chicago my memory says there were hepcats, but by '48
> you were either hip or square, I don't think there ever was a hipcat.
> I seem to remember an article in LIFE about zoot suits, claiming that
> the shift from hep to hip was due to even Kay Kyser referring to "hepcats".
>
> On 7/18/2010 11:49 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> After I had moved (relatively) North to Saint Louis, ca.1941-43 (even *I* do
>> not claim to have a clear memory of my *entire* past;-)), the local bruz and
>> cuz quickly pulled my coat to the fact that "hep" was unhip and a clear
>> indication that I must be unhip.
>>
>> The point was driven home so deeply that, from that moment on, I never again
>> used "hep," though I *knew* that it was - well, had been - hip to use "hep."
>>
>> 'In 1939, Buddy Johnson waxed his first 78 for Decca, "Stop Pretending (So
>> _Hep_ You See)."'
>> -AllMusic Guide to The Blues, 2003.
>>
>> Stop pretending
>> Yeah! Yeah!
>> Stop pretending
>> The devil's gonna get you
>> ...
>> [I'm] so _hep_, you see
>>
>> That's the best that I can do in a search of memory. (My mother had a copy
>> of the record.) But, no doubt, someone will look it up and supply any
>> necessary additions, editions, and corrections.
>>
>> Cab Calloway used "Hep! Hep!" in his song, The Jumping Jive. But it could be
>> argued that he used it merely as an exclamation to emphasize the rhythm.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter<wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter<wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: Dan Burley
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _Juba to Jive_ is, I fear, not a very reliable source.
>>>
>>> HDAS shows that _hep_ appears in print a few years earlier than _hip_,
>>> though not long enough to prove anything.
>>>
>>> Both forms antedate the jazz era, and both appear in the speech of whites.
>>> Not that that proves anything either.
>>>
>>> "Hep" was very widely used in the swing era.  In the mid to late '40s,
>>> "hip"
>>> was suddenly prescribed and "hep" was out, possibly to some extent because
>>> the new wave of be-boppers and R&B artists wanted to get away from the
>>> nuances of swing culture.  It probably is true, though, that white Middle
>>> American teens hung on to "hep" a few years longer than did black jazz and
>>> blues musicians. As usual, go figure.
>>>
>>> As I may have posted some while ago, I personally heard a black student at
>>> NYU in the early '70s exclaim in class, "White folks just ain't hep!"  She
>>> obviously hadn't been influenced by print.
>>>
>>> OTOH, that was probably the last time I heard anybody say "hep" in
>>> spontaneous speech.
>>>
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Margaret Lee<mlee303 at yahoo.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Margaret Lee<mlee303 at YAHOO.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: Dan Burley
>>>>
>>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> I once read that during the jazz era, 'hip' was used by blacks and 'hep'
>>>> by=
>>>>   whites. According to _Juba to Jive_ (Major) 'hep' was the misspelled
>>>> versi=
>>>> on of 'hip.'
>>>> Cool in current AAE seems to mean OK, acceptable, satisfactory, approved.
>>>> =C2=A0
>>>> --Margaret Lee
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Jonathan Lighter<wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Jonathan Lighter<wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject: Re: Dan Burley
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>> Date: Sunday, July 18, 2010, 1:19 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> GB has a full-page legit scan of _Billboard_ in 1955 that mentions
>>> "uncool
>>>> music."=C2=A0 That's the earliest one I've seen.
>>>>
>>>> As for hep/hip in my limited experience:
>>>>
>>>> AAVE:=C2=A0 no diff.
>>>>
>>>> AALE: you lame or something?=C2=A0 (if "L" stands for "literary and
>>> media")
>>>> JL
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Wilson Gray<hwgray at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0American Dialect Society
>>> <ADS-L at LI
>>>> =
>>>> STSERV.UGA.EDU<http://stserv.uga.edu/>>
>>>>> Poster:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Wilson Gray<hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> Subject:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Re: Dan Burley
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>>> ------
>>>>> Is there any distinction between _hep hip_ and _cool_ in AAVE or in
>>>>> AALE? How old is _uncool_?
>>>>>
>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Benjamin Zimmer
>>>>> <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu>  wrote:
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0American Dialect Society
>>> <ADS-L@
>>>> =
>>>> LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<http://listserv.uga.edu/>>
>>>>>> Poster:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Benjamin Zimmer
>>> <bgzimmer at BABEL.
>>>> =
>>>> LING.UPENN.EDU<http://ling.upenn.edu/>>
>>>>>> Subject:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Re: Dan Burley
>>>>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>>> ------
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Jonathan Lighter
>>>>>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>> The intro to HDAS draws attention to the writing of Dan Burley (1909
>>> -
>>>>> 1962,
>>>>>>> acc. to Wackipedia), the African-American journalist and musician
>>> who
>>>>>>> probably did more than any other individual human being to expand
>>> and
>>>>>>> popularize "jive" (urban BE slang), through his columns in the
>>>>> _Pittsburgh
>>>>>>> Courier_ and later in NYC's _Amsterdam News_, which he also edited.
>>>>>>> Burley wrote _Dan Burley's Original Handbook of Harlem Jive_ in 1944
>>>>> =C2=A0 (ISTR
>>>>>>> an earlier edition in 1941 that I was unable to obtain) and _Diggeth
>>>>> Thou?_
>>>>>>> in 1959.=C2=A0 I see that Thomas Aiello has recently edited both
>>>> under=
>>>>   the
>>>>> title
>>>>>>> _Dan Burley's Jive_ (2009). About time!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My point?=C2=A0 ProQuest now carries the _Amsterdam News_, and a
>>>> searc=
>>>> h for
>>>>> "Dan
>>>>>>> Burley" reveals hundreds of his weekly columns back to the late
>>> '30s.
>>>>> =C2=A0 They
>>>>>>> get jivier as time passes.=C2=A0 OED and others should find many
>>>> anted=
>>>> atings
>>>>>>> there.=C2=A0 And some whippersnapper might find diss. inspiration.
>>>>>> A search on the ADS-L archives will turn up several posts of mine
>>>>>> citing Burley's "Back Door Stuff," as it appeared in the Amsterdam
>>>>>> News and the Chicago Defender.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0512C&L=3DADS-L&P=
>>>> =3DR1615
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0512D&L=3DADS-L&P=
>>>> =3DR4384
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0802A&L=3DADS-L&P=
>>>> =3DR4306
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0802B&L=3DADS-L&P=
>>>> =3DR2259
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0809A&L=3DADS-L&P=
>>>> =3DR2413
>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0809A&L=3DADS-L&P=
>>>> =3DR4552
>>>>>> I also made mention of Burley's column in my On Language column on
>>>>>> "cool," as evidence that the term was *not* in common "jive" use in
>>>>>> the '30s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/magazine/30FOB-onlanguage-t.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Ben Zimmer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>> =E2=80=93=E2=80=93=E2=80=93
>>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"=E2=80=93=E2=80=93a
>>>> strange=
>>>>   complaint to
>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>> =E2=80=93Mark Twain
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --=20
>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>> truth."
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>>>> =0A=0A=0A
>>>>
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>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>
>> Wilson
>>
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>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
> --
>
>
>
> "I deny the allegations and I resent the allegator"
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

--
-Wilson
–––
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"––a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
–Mark Twain

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