more from Language Log

[Jonathan Lighter]

Cf. "rat-fink" (which may be the effective etymon for at least some
"rat-fuck" senses).

If there's any interest, I'll look deeper into my secret files.  Otherwise,
forget it.

JL





On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Arnold Zwicky <zwicky at stanford.edu> wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Arnold Zwicky <zwicky at STANFORD.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: more from Language Log
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> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Jul 23, 2010, at 5:26 AM, Mark Mandel wrote:
>
> > I have consistenly used "rat fuck!" as an expletive of extreme irritation
> > since, I believe, the middle 1960s.
> >
> > m a m
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Arnold Zwicky <zwicky at stanford.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Jul 22, 2010, at 5:18 AM, Jon Lighter wrote:
> >>>
> >>> "Ratfucking" goes back to at least the early '60s, as HDAS may someday
> >> show.
> >>> It entered politics in the era of CREEP.
> >>
> >> Jesse Sheidlower's _The F Word_ has an excellent series of entries on
> the
> >> "rat-fuck" lexical sphere, including entries on the noun (in several
> >> senses), "rat-fuck" the transitive verb (in several senses, including
> 'to
> >> outwit; trick' from AmSp in 1964 on, with specifically political uses at
> the
> >> end of the subentry), and "rat-fucking" the noun 'destructive activity,
> >> pranks' (with relevant cites from 1944 and then from 1972 on -- due to
> >> Donald Segretti, probably -- as specialized to political dirty tricks).
>
> i wasn't claiming to be giving all the uses of "rat-fuck" in Sheidlower,
> only discussing the ones that seemed most relevant to the ADS-L discussions,
> and then only very briefly; look at Sheidlower for the details.
>
> many of the uses seem to start from established uses of "fuck", affectively
> extended by "rat", but there are many complex sense developments, which need
> to be tracked.
>
> one entry i didn't mention is for the *interjection* "rat-fuck" ("= FUCK
> _verb_ definition 1.d."). Sheidlower has it only from 1996, so if you can
> find an actual citation from the 60s, that would be a considerable
> antedating.
>
> i recall the noun "rat-fuck" from the 60s, as both a term of abuse applied
> to a person ("he's a stupid rat-fuck") and a reference to "a confused or
> bungled situation". ("what a rat-fuck the whole thing was!").  but then
> recollections are fragile and undependable.
>
> along those lines, i *think* i recall the noun used in the negative
> polarity item "give/care/etc. a rat-fuck" -- i.e., "not give/care/etc. a
> rat-fuck" 'not give/care/etc. a damn' -- from the early 60s (from my college
> years).  Sheidlower's first cite for this sense is from 1971, but it's in a
> dictionary, suggesting earlier use, which would make 60s occurrences not
> implausible.
>
> but then maybe i'm not understanding what gets covered by "expletive" for
> you -- or indeed what the  intent of your comment was.
>
> arnold, bowing out of this now; if you want to pursue it, talk to Jesse
>
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