Antedating of _doo(UNCLASSIFIED)

[Mullins, Bill AMRDEC]

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

"Tunes with Greatest Radio - TV Audience" _Billboard_ 3/24/1958 p 60 col
3
"Doo-Wop (R) -- Kempto & Wildcat -- BMI" [a song title] [Google Books]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer
> Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 9:22 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Antedating of _doo(-)wop_
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> --------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Antedating of _doo(-)wop_
>
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> --------
>
> Wilson, I wasn't trying to one-up your interpretation! Far from it.
> What I found interesting about the quote is Davis's reference to the
> song as "a doo-wop." When the 1961 cite enters the OED (as it surely
> will), the "doo-wop" entry will need to be expanded to include this
> sort of count-noun usage (i.e., "a song [with such-and-such
> characteristics]"). Later cites would fit into the mass-noun "genre"
> usage the OED already has ("a variety of (orig. American) vocal group
> music [etc.]").  A good comparison would be "rap" in the musical sense
> -- the count noun (rap = 'a rap song') predates the mass noun (rap =
> 'rap music').
>
> But you're quite correct that either the count-noun or mass-noun usage
> could be considered an instantiation of a genre. Sorry to suggest
> otherwise. (And the 1965 cite I gave is attributive anyway, so it's
> neither here nor there, really.)
>
> --Ben Zimmer
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I got that the reviewer was referring specifically to Blue
Moon,
> > by The Marcels - I was still in the Army when that was new, but
> > American black music, *all* on the Decca label, hit Army towns about
> > as quickly as they were released in the States. You noted the
> > reference to "like those of many years ago," right? IMO, that means
> > "genre" and not a given example of it.
> >
> > I refuse to accept your argument. Different strokes... If you choose
> > to believe that you somehow are better able to understand this
better
> > I can, just because you choose to interpret a line from a newspaper
> in
> > a different way, knock yourself out. I tried to make it as obvious
as
> > I could why I chose my interpretation. But, if you'd rather make
some
> > other claim, based on the fact that the reviewer is clearly
referring
> > to what he considers to be a current example of what he specifically
> > states is an older genre, what can I tell you? "To each their own,"
> to
> > quote the annoying slogan of a Boston-area second-hand store.
> >
> > You also might try reading this book and others on the topic. It
> might
> > give you a better picture of what the history of this style of music
> > is.
> >
> > OTOH, as any fool can plainly hear, The Marcels' version of "Blue
> > Moon" is hardly an example of the doo-wop that I grew up with, which
> > was pretty much killed by "The Twist" and the Motown Sound. If the
> > reviewer believes that it is, he's clearly several years younger
than
> > I am.
> >
> > -Wilson
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Benjamin Zimmer
> > <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
------------
> -----------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> >> Subject:      Re: Antedating of _doo(-)wop_
> >>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> >>
> >> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> HDAS:
> >>>
> >>> doo-wop. 1969 In OED2 ...
> >>>
> >>> Gribbin, Anthony J., PhD, and Matthew M. Schiff, MD. Doo-Wop.
Iola,
> WI, c1992.
> >>>
> >>> Quoting the Chicago Defender. March 18, 1961: "... A real doo-wop,
> >>> *like those of many years ago* [emphasis supplied], is making the
> >>> scene but big in Chi-town ..."
> >>
> >> Very interesting. I can't seem to pull up the relevant article in
> the
> >> Defender (I think the version of ProQuest I'm accessing only has
the
> >> national edition, not the local edition, for that date). But
another
> >> forum says this was by Chuck Davis, Jr. (who wrote the Defender's
> >> "Platters" column), referring to "Blue Moon" by the Marcels. So
> >> "doo-wop" here is evidently referring to a song, rather than the
> whole
> >> genre.
> >>
> >> The earliest cite I've found for "doo-wop" as a genre is also from
> the Defender:
> >>
> >> ---
> >> 1965 _Chicago Defender_ 13 Nov. 26A/3 People who hate rock and
roll,
> >> rhythm and blues, The Beatles, and doo~wop singing groups, go wild
> >> about Ray Charles.
> >> ---
> >>
> >>
> >> --Ben Zimmer
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -Wilson
> > ---
> > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"--a strange complaint
> to
> > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > -Mark Twain
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

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