The bird

[Jonathan Lighter]

I didn't hear it till 1970. HDAS shows the documentary evidence is not much
older.

JL

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:18 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: The bird
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> A propos of nothing, I was ca.35 before I ever heard the phrase, "flip
> someone the bird." After asking my interlocutor what she meant, I was
> surprised to discover that it meant the same as "slip someone the
> finger."
>
> Youneverknow.
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:52 AM, Peter McGraw
> <mrlanguageperson at verizon.net> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Peter McGraw <mrlanguageperson at VERIZON.NET>
> > Subject:      Re: The bird
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > "Slip" is=A0exactly what it says.=A0 The document uses the same two
> styles =
> > of the letter s that are found in the U.S. constitution.=A0 A
> contemporary =
> > reader of the document would not have confused this word with
> "flip."=0A=0A=
> > Peter McGraw=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Dan
> Gon=
> > charoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>=0ATo: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU=0ASent: Thu,
> Marc=
> > h 4, 2010 7:16:39 PM=0ASubject: Re: The bird=0A=0A----------------------
> In=
> > formation from the mail header -----------------------=0ASender:=A0 =A0
> =A0=
> >  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>=0APoster:=A0 =A0 =A0
> Dan=
> >  Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>=0ASubject:=A0 =A0 =A0 Re: The
> bird=0A-----=
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > =0A=0AI read this as "slip the bird", as in "let slip the bird which he
> had=
> >  in=0Ahis hand". But then, what do I know?=0A=0ADanG=0A=0AOn 3/4/2010
> 9:23 =
> > PM, Victor Steinbok wrote:=0A> ---------------------- Information from
> the =
> > mail header -----------------------=0A> Sender:=A0 =A0 =A0 American
> Dialect=
> >  Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>=0A> Poster:=A0 =A0 =A0 Victor
> Steinbok<aar=
> > dvark66 at GMAIL.COM>=0A> Subject:=A0 =A0 =A0 Re: The bird=0A>
> ---------------=
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------=0A>=0A>
> I =
> > have no doubt that the meaning in the following is quite literal, but=0A>
> i=
> > t is still interesting because it is the only one of its kind that I=0A>
> fo=
> > und pre-1900=0A>=0A> http://bit.ly/bcfK2q=0A>=0A> For this to have been
> a e=
> > uphemism, there would have to have been a=0A> breakdown in communication,
> a=
> > t some point, for Harris (the translator)=0A> means it quite
> literally.=0A>=
> > =0A>=A0 =A0 =A0 VS-)=0A>=0A> On 3/4/2010 7:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:=
> > =0A>=0A>> The photo in question appeared in 1996 in Geoffrey C. Ward's
> _Bas=
> > eball_,=0A>> written to accompany Ken Burns's TV series.=0A>>=0A>> As
> HDAS =
> > notes, _Funk&=A0 Wagnall's Standard Dictionary_ of 1890-93 amazingly=0A>>
> i=
> > ncludes the phrase "give someone the finger," somewhat lamely defined,
> and=
> > =0A>> with no apparent suggestion of obscenity.=0A>>=0A>> My=A0 SWAG is
> tha=
> > t the gesture became widespread/ familiar to the "educated"=0A>> in the
> 188=
> > 0s, which seems to imply a long underground existence.=0A>>=0A>> Maybe it
> w=
> > as popularized during the Civil War.=0A>>=0A>> I've never seen any
> document=
> > ation earlier than the photo.=A0 In the light=0A>> of the gesture's
> apparen=
> > t existence in Ancient Rome, one can only guess that=0A>> it may have
> been =
> > introduced into modern American culture by (very=0A>> conservative)
> Italian=
> >  immigrants.=A0 Another SWAG, of course.=0A>>=0A>> JL=0A>>=0A>> On Thu,
> Mar=
> >  4, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC<=0A>> Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil
> >=
> > =A0 wrote:=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>
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>
> --
> -Wilson
> –––
> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"––a strange complaint to
> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> –Mark Twain
>
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