Query: "I've got your [ouse] number."
Joel S. Berson
Berson at ATT.NET
Wed Mar 17 18:42:16 UTC 2010
Thanks, George. I have not found a productive way of searching EAN
for such house numbers -- EAN wants to ignore periods (in "No."), for
one thing.
The New York street numbers precede the example of cab license number.
Lots allotted in the division of New England towns were numbered from
the early 1700s, but that's not what we think of as a street address.
I did find a "John Shepherd, merchant taylor, No. 32, Hanover Square"
from 1789 (Daily Advertiser, NY), fitting in with George's 1783 and
1794 dates. And a lot with a house "on the north side of
Elliot-street, and known by the numbers 37 and 38", in the State
Gazette of South-Carolina, 1786 Oct. 5, p. 1. The phrasing suggests
that numbering houses on streets was a new concept for Charleston in 1786.
Joel
At 3/17/2010 01:45 PM, George Thompson wrote:
>References to House-numbers, from NY City newspapers:
> FRONT TEETH. ANY Person disposed to part with their FRONT
> TEETH, may call at No. 28, Maiden-Lane, and shall have a good price
> for them. Also, some DRY TEETH are wanted.
> Independent Journal, November 24, 1783, p. 3, col. 3
> STRAYED, THE 20th instant, from No. 24, Maiden Lane, A
> Little Brown DOG, about two months old. ***
> Diary, or Ev Register, January 24, 1794, p. 3, col. 3
>
> Subscribers to the Morning Chronicle who change their
> residence, are requested to sent WRITTEN information to the office,
> No. 99, Water-street. And it is particularly requested that they
> will mention also the street and number FROM which they remove.
> M Chronicle, May 3, 1805, p. 2, col. 4
>
> [a stranger, recently moved into the city, advised the
> corporation to attend to the numbering of city houses; without
> numbers, the Directory is little use]
> N-Y E Post, July 18, 1810, p. 3, col. 2
> [houses in the city should have numbers]
> Commercial Advertiser, December 26, 1816, p. 2, cols. 2-3
>and later references, into the 1820s, suggesting that house-numbers
>weren't always displayed. (And, indeed, there was an article to
>this effect in the NYTimes of Monday or Tuesday. (I do occasionally
>read a newspaper not printed 200 ears ago.))
>
>References to numbers on hacks and delivery-wagons:
> [a complaint lodged against a crooked hackney coach driver;
> asked double fare on a rainy night; refused to take the passenger
> for the established fare; refused to give his name and license
> number; fines: $10, $15, $10] The impositions and insolence of
> Hackney coachmen, are proverbial the world over; but if every
> person imposed on, or attempted to be imposed on by them, would but
> do an act of duty, by taking the trouble to enter a complaint
> against them for a breach of the laws, . . . we should soon see
> this growing evil checked in New-York.
> N-Y E Post, August 30, 1815, p. 2, cols. 4 5 (Impositions
> by cab drivers were also the subject of a recent NYTimes article)
> There goes a pig; there a buck in a chaise rattles over the
> curb stones; there gallops a cartman -- take his number, or the
> mayor will not believe you. . . . ***
> National Advocate, July 18, 1818, p. 2, cols. 1-2
>
> Meanwhile, my own understanding of the expression "I've got
> your number" is not "I can make trouble for you; I can get back at
> you" but "I understand what a low, contemptible fellow you are".
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
>Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>Date: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:32 am
>Subject: Re: Query: "I've got your number."
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> > What about house number on your street? "I know where you
> > live." When did houses begin to be given numbers, in England or the
> > U.S.? (Not in the first half of the 18th century, in New
> > England. But by the time of Sherlock Holmes.)
> >
> > As for Victor's (5), instead of the witness's number, is this a
> > document number or case number? In the 17th century court records in
> > Massachusetts, cases were numbered, presumably for cross-referencing
> > when there were intervening records (e.g., depositions taken one
> > session, trial at a later session).
> >
> > And of course baseball players who want a former star's old number.
> >
> > Joel
> >
> > At 3/17/2010 01:59 AM, victor steinbok wrote:
> > >There can be no question that George Thompson is correct in his
> > >observation--a number of sources from 1841 forward confirm this use of
> > >"I've got your/his number", and I found references in a variety of US
> > >and UK sources, including Alcott's novels. The problem is, the same
> > >expression was used in a number of other contexts.
> > >
> > >1) Cabs/Cab drivers (hansoms)--both US and UK
> > >2) Policemen--UK
> > >3) Bus (Omnibus) drivers--London
> > >4) Regiment and other subdivision numbers--UK (from Wellington's
> > >dispatches to commanders at Waterloo)--when someone relinquished a
> > >command and was later commissioned again to the same rank, they often
> > >wanted their old regiments/divisions/etc. back, but someone else might
> > >have "got his number".
> > >5) Very common references in British Commissions (Royal/Parliamentary)
> > >who, while questioning witnesses, would respond to submitted records
> > >(usually in advance, with copies held by witnesses) with "I've got
> > >your number." I am not quite sure why it's "number" and not "numbers",
> > >but that's what's on record. Of course, I did not search for "numbers"
> > >so such references may be even more numerous. The bottom line is that
> > >it was the same turn of phrase and used during the same period.
> > >
> > >The earliest reference, by far, is (4), Wellington's dispatches in
> > >1815. This is followed by (1) and (3), from the 1840s forward, (2) and
> > >(5) from 1870s forward. (I only checked as far as 1890.)
> > >
> > >There are a few other, apparently isolated references, such as hotel
> > >room number that could be observed when the keys are handed over to
> > >the porter or clerk (still common practice in Europe, but not US),
> > >and, of course, generic use from 1840s forward.
> > >
> > >I have most of the references covered, but don't have time to deal
> > >with it now. I am not sure how helpful all of this is, as it seems to
> > >muddy the scene more than resolving it. But one can't go wrong with
> > >(1), even if it's an indication of a particular SES subclass. And full
> > >credit to George.
> > >
> > >VS-)
> > >
> > >On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 9:31 PM, George Thompson
> > ><george.thompson at nyu.edu> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > By the 1820s, at least, in NYC, hacks were required to carry a
> > > clearly readable number, one that would be lit up at night, to help
> > > identify the hack, whether in traffic cases -- hit & run, &c. -- or
> > > in complaints by riders. No doubt there was a similar policy in
> > > London -- a much larger city.
> > > > An irate passenger/driver could threaten "I've got your number,
> > > you won't get away with this."
> > > >
> > > > GAT
> > > >
> > > > George A. Thompson
> > > > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
> > > Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: victor steinbok <aardvark66 at gmail.com>
> > > > Date: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:05 pm
> > > > Subject: Re: Query: "I've got your number."
> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > >
> > > >> Clearly not telephone. Consider this line from a 1844 Punch poem.
> > > >>
> > > >> http://books.google.com/books?id=40wPAQAAIAAJ
> > > >> Punch, Vol. 7, 1844, p. 261
> > > >>
> > > >> The Buss-Driver's Lament Over Bygone Days.
> > > >>
> > > >> ...
> > > >> When we,--that is, myself and cad,--
> > > >> Could o'er our pewters slumber ;
> > > >> But, stop an instant now, 'gad !
> > > >> The p'liceman 's got your number.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> But all this show is that the expression was in use in 1844 London,
> > > >> not where it came from.
> > > >>
> > > >> I do have a couple of guesses, but I'll post them later. I hope this
> > > >> is not a rush question.
> > > >>
> > > >> VS-)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Laurence Horn
> > > >> <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > At 6:14 PM -0500 3/16/10, Gerald Cohen wrote:
> > > >> >> A colleague has asked me about the origin of the slang phrase
> > > >> "I've got
> > > >> >>your number" (= to have precise, useful knowledge of someone's
> > > weaknesses;
> > > >> >>have someone in a critical position).
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>I checked Jonathan Lighter's excellent HDAS and see examples going
> > > >> back to
> > > >> >>1853, but I don't see an etymology given, so I suppose this silence
> > > >> equates
> > > >> >>to "Origin unknown."
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>I see various items on the expression in Google but am not clear
> > > >> about their
> > > >> >>reliability. Would anyone know what the "number" originally
> > > >> referred to?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>Gerald Cohen
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I always assumed, without any privileged knowledge, that it referred
> > > >> > to a phone number: I've got your number, I know where to reach/get
> > > >> > to you, you can't escape... Maybe evoking those old movies like
> > > >> > "Dial M for Murder", in which the bad guy has the good guy/gal's
> > > >> > (phone) number and can call it at will to raise the latter's fear
> > > >> > quotient and the audience's tension. But that's just a guess.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > LH
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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