Vietnam

Thu May 20 00:05:12 UTC 2010

Now in my dotage, I have found the time to belong to a few veterans' groups,
mostly Vietnam-oriented.  I must say what Jonathan points out is right on
the mark.  There are conversations about the place, the culture, the
competence or lack of it of the ARVN's, the women, the heat, the beer
("33"), the nuoc-mam, etc, etc., but nothing on any combat action.
Although, I remember clearly, when I was there, we talked about it all the
time, although a lot of the discussion was of the nature of "lessons
learned", how to avoid getting caught at a particular disadvantage, or how
to be more effective.
 .
BP

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Lighter" <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: Vietnam

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Vietnam
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Most people who've been involved in a fatal car wreck don't enjoy talking
> about that either.
>
> The cliche' is true: those who haven't been in it can hardly conceive of
> the
> physical and psychological reality of modern combat and its aftermath. (I
> speak only as one who has studied the question for a number of years.)
> Add an aversion  to planting certain images in the minds of one's family.
>
> Thus the silence of many veterans, particularly around civilians.
>
> JL
> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Dave Wilton <dave at wilton.net> wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET>
>> Subject:      Re: Vietnam
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Many WWII vets (and probably other wars as well) downplay their combat
>> experience, sometimes even outright denying their involvement. My dad
>> always
>> told us that he never saw combat in WWII, having been shipped to Europe
>> too
>> late. After his death, I found his flight records that told the opposite.
>> He
>> arrived in Europe in mid-1944 and flew over 25 combat missions as a B-24
>> tail-gunner, surviving both flak and fighter attacks.
>>
>> I remember seeing an interview with Stephen Ambrose who said that this
>> behavior was common among the veterans he interviewed. He said it usually
>> took a while before the interviewee started to fess up to actually having
>> seen combat.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
>> Of
>> Jonathan Lighter
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 11:40 AM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Vietnam
>>
>> A good word is "equivocation." My guess is that the Attorney General of
>> the
>> State of Connecticut was attempting to be equivocal and the equivocation
>> came out indistinguishable from an outright falsehood.
>>
>> BTW, "in World War II" lends itself to soem degree of equivocation far
>> better than "in Vietnam," because "World War II" is not a place; thus
>> "in"
>> cannot be taken to mean "within the geographical boundaries of."
>>
>> Back in the '50s, many dads had served "in" WWII, and it was common for
>> kids
>> to say so, regardless of where he'd been stationed.  The dads I knew,
>> however, would be quick to say (as appropriate), "Well, I was in
>> (uniform/
>> the service/ etc.), but I didn't go overseas."  Or perhaps, "I was in
>> Hawaii
>> the whole time." Of course, the qualifications themselves suggest that
>> "in
>> World War II" fundamentally implies "in combat in WWII."
>>
>> But it does seem to offer a little more wiggle room than "in Vietnam."
>>
>> JL
>>
>> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Laurence Horn
>> <laurence.horn at yale.edu>wrote:
>>
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > -----------------------
>> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> > Subject:      Re: Vietnam
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>> >
>> > At 10:25 AM -0400 5/19/10, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>> > >Is there an easy way to differentiate between someone who
>> > >occasionally,
>> > >in a limited number of instances, lies, as opposed to someone who has
>> > >fabricated his biography consistently over a long period of time?
>> > >
>> > >They both appear to be liars, which is not helpful. Calling the
>> > >occasional lies "misstatements" doesn't work for me, as it implies the
>> > >lies were unintentional, which in my hypothetical example is not the
>> case.
>> > >
>> > >DanG
>> >
>> > How about a veterate liar? (as opposed to all those inveterate ones)
>> >
>> > (Yes, yes, I know.)
>> >
>> > LH
>> >
>> > >
>> > >On 5/19/2010 10:12 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>> > >
>> > >>It is certainly possible that Blumenthal might accidentally have said
>> > >>"served in" when he meant "served during," but my opinion is that he
>> > could
>> > >>have and should have caught and corrected himself.  In that split
>> second
>> > he
>> > >>chose not to.
>> > >>
>> > >>It would, of course, be far worse if - as some have done - he'd
>> > manufactured
>> > >>a fake Vietnam service record.  Whether a politician's "mere"
>> rhetorical
>> > >>sleaze is enough to neutralize his actual accomplishements in office
>> is,
>> > of
>> > >>course, another issue.
>> > >
>> > >------------------------------------------------------------
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>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>>
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>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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