barrel of monkeys

[Wilson Gray]

I didn't attempt to supply a specific date.The war that I had in mind
is WWII. "After The War," "During The War" became one of many
catch-phrases that referenced "The War."

-Wilson

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 4:46 AM, Victor Steinbok <aardvark66 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Victor Steinbok <aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: barrel of monkeys
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> More fun than a barrel of monkeys // Barrel of monkeys // Monkey P4.
> 1895 --> 1885
> Wagonload of monkeys // Monkey P4. ? --> 1837
> [more general] X[load] of monkeys 1840 --> 1823
> Barrel of fun // Barrel 1993 addition [I.][2.]b. 1915 --> 1892
> Where the monkey puts the nuts // Monkey P7. a1935 --> 1906
> Where the monkey puts the shells // Monkey P7. 1879 [no improvement]
> Monkey see, monkey do // Monkey P8. 1920 --> 1908
>
> I found Wilson's archived post about the game, but the expression
> predates the game by quite some time--some 80 years, it seems. Wiki
> lists the same date that Wilson had previously found (1965). The
> inventors explicitly said that they got the name from the expression,
> not the other way around. I am not sure which War Wilson was referring
> to. So, unfortunately, we still don't have the origin of the phrase,
> although some bits have come more clearly into view.
>
> There had been some guesses that "barrel of monkeys" had been derived
> from "barrel of fun" and "wagonload of monkeys". Although this is true
> of the game--according to lore, the game designers initially were going
> to name the game "Barrel of fun", but ran into trademark problems--it's
> highly doubtful of the original phrase.
>
> I also finally tracked down "barrel of monkeys" in the OED--it's one of
> the March 2010 additions/phrases
>
>> P4. colloq.a wagonload (also barrel, etc.) of monkeys: used as the
>> type of something extremely clever, mischievous, disorderly, jolly,
>> fun, etc.
>> In barrel of monkeys, perh. influenced by barrel of fun (laughs, etc.)
>> at BARREL n. Additions.
>> 1840 G. DARLEY Thomas à Becket V. viii. 129 De Traci chatters More
>> than a cage of monkeys: we must wait. 1889 Harper's Bazar 21 Dec.
>> 932/4 My brother..says the American girls are perfectly fascinating...
>> He says they are more fun than a box of monkeys. 1895 W. C. GORE in
>> Inlander Dec. 115 Barrel of monkeys, or bushel of monkeys, to have
>> more fun than, to have an exceedingly jolly time. 1908 W. G. DAVENPORT
>> Butte & Montana 28 This is just more fun than a bag of monkeys. 1930
>> G. GOODCHILD McLean Investigates xvi. 310 If once we lose touch with
>> Feeny{em}good-bye to the Rajah's ruby. He is as clever as a cartload
>> of monkeys. 1968 A. POWELL Mil. Philosophers 155 They're as artful as
>> a cartload of monkeys when it comes to breaking the rules. 1978 G.
>> VIDAL Kalki ii. 24 Christianity was never exactly a barrel of monkeys
>> when it came to the here and now. 1986 Times 28 Apr. 31/6 Plot-wise,
>> it is as mischievous as a wagon-load of monkeys. 1996 People
>> (Electronic ed.) 2 June, Knows loads about loads of sports. Clever as
>> a barrowload of monkeys.
>
>
> Note, in particular, that both Albert Krahn's find
>
> http://bit.ly/bDNTt2
>  > NEW YORK DISPATCH, 4 October 1885, pg. 2, col. 6
>
> and mine
>
> http://bit.ly/d7KTCc
>  > Judge's Serial. No. 1. New York: August 1887
>  > THE MAN WHO TALKS; OR, The Drummer on the Rail.
>  > THE HUMOROUS ADVENTURES OF THREE MODEST DRUMMERS.
>  > From "JUDGE." p. 13
>
> http://bit.ly/atVhrR
>  > Longman's Magazine. London: December 1886
>  > Edged Tools. A TALE IN TWO CHAPTERS. p. 161
>
> predate the OED citation to the student slang entry from the Inland
> (1895) that I mentioned earlier. But the Pickwick Papers citation (1837)
> and The Man-of-War's-Man (1823) are both missing, so my search was not
> for naught.
>
> Also note that OED is one of the sources that suggests the derivation of
> "barrel of monkeys" from "barrel of fun". But both the OED references
> for "barrel of fun" and the ones I found /postdate/ barrel of monkeys!
>
>> barrel n.
>>
>> Add: [I.] [2.] b. In fig. phr. barrel of fun (laughs, etc.): (the
>> source of) a great deal of enjoyment or entertainment. colloq. (orig.
>> U.S.).
>> 1915 Dialect Notes IV. 243, I had a barrel of fun when I went to
>> Maccasin. 1939 L. BROWN Beer Barrel Polka 4 Roll out the barrel We'll
>> have a barrel of fun. 1977 Washington Post 8 June B1 No one has ever
>> accused Princess Anne of being a barrel of laughs. 1981 Verbatim
>> Spring (Bk. Club Catal.) 3/3 (Advt.), A wonderful object to..have a
>> barrel of fun with. 1986 Parents Sept. 72/3 What they haven't
>> bargained for is a wife who is so tired..that she's even less of a
>> barrel of laughs than she was while pregnant.
>
> But,
>
> http://bit.ly/bjjEvi
> Table talk, Volume 7:3. March 1892
> A Barrel Of Fun. p. 91
>> The cover, a sliding one, like those used on paint boxes. When pushed
>> in, it looked like any other table, and, with its gay spread, was
>> always ready for books, slates and dolls' tea parties, galore. It was
>> painted brown, and the box lined with zinc. Then came what the
>> expressman called "a barrel of sand," and groaned when he said it. It
>> proved a /barrel of fun/, and everybody laughed then. The cover was
>> removed from the table, the box top filled with the sand, and the pies
>> were "lovely" once more.
>
>
> Another phrase that appears in the March 2010 draft is one that I've
> spotted and discussed off-list back in March, in connection with "Put
> your money where your mouth is".
>
>> P7. slang (chiefly Brit.). to put it where the monkey puts the nuts:
>> expressing contemptuous rejection. Also where the monkey puts the nuts
>> and variants: in the anus.
>> 1879 Harlequin Prince Cherrytop 25 Put your gifts away, Where the
>> monkey put the shells. a1935 T. E. LAWRENCE Mint (1955) II. xiv. 139
>> ‘Put that where the monkey put the nuts,’ retorted Taffy. 1968 J. R.
>> ACKERLEY My Father & Myself 43 The kind of proud and angry way in
>> which one might say, ‘Put it where the monkey put the nuts!’ 1970 V.
>> CANNING Great Affair x. 168 He would get six inches of true British
>> timber where the monkey kept his nuts. 1988 J. NEEL Death's Bright
>> Angel iii. 16 He added a scribbled note suggesting the supplier be
>> told to put the writ where the monkey put the nuts.
>
> The 1935 date for the actual head phrase can be improved.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=XwYiAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA215
> The marriage of Captain Kettle. By Charles John Cutcliffe Wright Hyne.
> 1912, p. 215
>> "Captain?"
>> "Yes, Mr. McTodd."
>> "About yon black fellow the stewardess kenned. For why did he ask if I
>> could do him a bit job ashore, and offer me a fi'pound note on account?"
>> "I don't know. But naturally you told him you were engaged here, and
>> he could put his money where the monkey put the nuts." "Man," said
>> McTodd solemnly, "you'd never guess it of me, but I'll tell ye in
>> confidence that I come form the North, and up there it's said to be
>> unlucky if you refuse siller if it's as good as offered ye. So I--I
>> angled him, and I landed the note. I changed it with the steward to
>> make sure if was a good one."
> http://books.google.com/books?id=QHy_KzEmDZYC&pg=PA111
> Kate Meredith, financier. By Charles John Cutcliffe Wright Hyne. 1906.
> p. 111
>> You can let both Chips and the bo's'n understand that unless I see a
>> good round sum in hard cash as my share of profits when we get back to
>> Liverpool, they don't ride in the old /M'poso/ next trip. They can put
>> their book debts where the monkey put the nuts. They don't pay me out
>> with those. No, by Crumbs!
>
> At the time I spotted these, I did not check for variants. These are
> likely to be British in origin, so searching US papers won't help. So no
> improvement on the "shells" date (1879). But there is an interesting
> variant:
>
>> County settles with fired employee
>> Pay-Per-View - St. Petersburg Times - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 25, 1998
>> "I'd tell 'em to put it where the monkey put the coconut," said
>> Tenini, a retired Spring Hill resident. "I can't see settling for $19500.
>
> It is in this form that I first heard the expression, likely on TV.
>
> One more phrase from the Monkey list.
>
>> P8. colloq. monkey see, monkey do: commenting (freq. contemptuously)
>> on an instance of unthinking imitation, or of learning or performing
>> by rote.
>> 1920 Mansfield (Ohio) News 4 Jan. 4A (caption) Monkey see monkey do.
>> 1934 Z. N. HURSTON Jonah's Gourd Vine i. 24 You jes started tuh talk
>> dat foolishness since you been hangin' 'round ole Mimms. Monkey see,
>> monkey do. 1967 E. PARTRIDGE Dict. Slang (ed. 6) Suppl. 1250/2 Monkey
>> see, monkey do!, a Canadian (and U.S.) c[atch] p[hrase] ‘addressed to
>> one who imitates the actions of another, or as a warning not to do
>> such and such because someone (usually a child) might follow suit’.
>> 1978 Maledicta 1977 1 273 Monkey see; monkey do. Elaborate precautions
>> of Parisian couturiers could not curtail the spy. 1986 Video Today
>> Apr. 57/1 Buttons only identified by symbols so read instructions
>> carefully{em}a case of monkey see monkey do. 1995 Financial Post
>> (Nexis) 22 June III. 51 It's no secret the monkey-see-monkey-do NHL is
>> hell-bent on transforming itself into the NBA.
>
> http://bit.ly/ch8Omy
> A class-room conversation book. By Fong F. Sec. 1908
> p. 118
>> Monkeys are great imitators, hence the saying, " Monkey see, monkey do."
>
>
> VS-)
>
>
> On 5/21/2010 2:00 AM, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> I may be entirely wrong, but I've always thought that "more fun than a
>> barrel of monkeys" was based on A Barrel of Monkeys, a children's game
>> played with toy monkeys taken from a toy barrel, the first monkey was
>> hung over the edge of the barrel and the remainder were hung by the
>> tails, until the chain broke. During The War, available at
>> Woolworth's, Kresge's, and other fine stores, as well as in the toy
>> departments of better department stores.
>>
>> IME, the game is too complicated for pre-schoolers lacking the
>> necessary fine motor skills and too boring for older children, So,
>> I've always fet that the phrase is, or was, used tronically
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>
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>



--
-Wilson
–––
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"––a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
–Mark Twain

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