"Cock"

Wed Aug 17 02:51:15 UTC 2011

Makes me think of "Ye Olde Cock Tavern" in London where Dr Johnson put together the first English dictionary.  It used to be called "Ye Cock and Bottle".  I wonder if cock meant the same things?

 Sent 2nd time.  Don't know what happened to the first.

Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9.
Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk

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> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:28:51 -0400
> From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM
> Subject: Re: "Cock"
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject: Re: "Cock"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't think this is argumentum ignoratio elenchi (or is there
> some other argumentum ignoratio you had in mind?). I'm specifically
> responding to the question, which I raised originally, whether there
> were people for whom "cock" is a unisex term, so I'm not failing to
> address the issue in question. I believe it's a valid line of inquiry
> to proceed from effect ("cock" means the masculine genitalia for some
> and the feminine genitalia for others) to plausible causes.
>
> Jon suggests a possible explanation might be a distinct etymon.
> That strikes me as unlikely, but of course other examples of confusion
> from similar but distinct etymons could be cited, so it certainly isn't
> impossible. There seems to be some uncertainty as to the etymon for
> cock=genitalia anyway.
>
> My point with "prick" and "pintle" was simply that,
> historically, there were some people for whom "prick" was a euphemism,
> which supports the possibility that there may have been people for whom
> "cock" was a euphemism. The classic quotation in the OED is from 1655:
> "The French men call this fish the Asses-prick, and Dr Wotton termeth it
> grosly the Pintle fish." I agree with Jon that this has limited bearing
> on the issue of a unisex c-word; I don't consider it very important
> whether "cock" was a euphemism or not.
>
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
> Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:28 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "Cock"
>
> >But if not, how do you account for its transmigration across the gender
> line?
>
> Wow! Argumentum ignoratio!
>
> But one explanation might be a distinct etymon.
>
> > It's no more unlikely than the historically attested fact that "prick"
> was
> once a euphemism for "pintle."
>
> Sure it is. Because neither "prick" nor "pintle" also meant "vagina' at
> the
> same time. But perhaps I misapprehend the argument.
>
> And do we know that "prick" was a euphemism rather than a vulgarism?
> (Not
> that I'm sure it has any bearing on the issue of a unisex c-word.) OED
> calls
> "prick" "coarse slang" but doesn't label "pintle."
>
> JL
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Baker, John <JMB at stradley.com> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> > Subject: Re: "Cock"
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> >
> > I'm not sure why euphemisms don't count, or why we're assuming
> > that "cock" is the basic term. I have more than one word in my
> > wordhoard with the applicable meaning, and I assume that those
> speakers
> > did too. For all I know, some of these speakers did consider "cock"
> to
> > be a euphemism. It's no more unlikely than the historically attested
> > fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle."
> >
> > Of course, I don't actually know that there ever were any
> people
> > who had "cock" as a unisex term. But if not, how do you account for
> its
> > transmigration across the gender line?
> >
> >
> > John Baker
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> Behalf
> > Of Jonathan Lighter
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 2:22 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: "Cock"
> >
> > >there must have been at least some speakers for whom
> > "cock" was unisex.
> >
> > But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone
> > eccentrics?
> >
> > I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is
> > always
> > the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all
> > depends
> > on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine
> > tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms
> > were
> > generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of
> a
> > speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English,
> > please
> > post.
> >
> > People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g.,
> > everybody
> > on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the
> word
> > in a
> > unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single
> > meaning:
> > "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately."
> >
> > Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms:
> > in
> > other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The
> > basic
> > terms are what we're talking about, no?
> >
> > "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms
> of
> > everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and
> vaginas.
> > And
> > those are what we're talking about.
> >
> > Of course, that's only my opinion.
> >
> > JL
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
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