"anachronism" and the OED

Wed Jul 13 00:06:44 UTC 2011

At 7/12/2011 07:00 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
>Sense 2 is a specific use of 'anachronism' as a shorthand term for
>'practical anachronism', which is defined just is described after the
>'hence'.
>
>My problem would be the general sense of 'anachronism' as being in the wrong
>time -- I vaguely recall the example of a clock striking in Shakespeare's
>Julius Caesar as a well-known anachronism. Your description of Sense 1
>doesn't clearly cover it. Or does it?

Sense 1 doesn't cover Shakespeare, or Lady Audley's Secret.  Neither
is "An error in computing time, or fixing dates."

But if sense 2 is a specific use of "anachronism", the definition
after the "hence" doesn't cover the Lady Audley's Secret anachronism
("gold-digger"), which is a word inappropriate to its 1860s time, not
something "out of
harmony with the present".  I don't think it covers the Julius Caesar
clock striking either.

I believe the sense 2 definition is inadequate, although the 1864
example fits the sense that I find absent in the definition:

1864    Round Table 18 June 4/3   She gives them phrases and words
which..had their beginning long since that period, and are in fact
linguistic anachronisms.

Joel

>DanG
>
>
>On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > Subject:      Re: "anachronism" and the OED
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > At 7/12/2011 04:38 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > >I am confused.
> > >
> > >Isn't the fact that this is sense 2 of anachronism demonstrate that it
> > >doesn't restrict use of the term to practical anachronism?
> > >
> > >What is sense 1? I don't have the OED available to me at the moment.
> >
> > Sense 1 is about something else:
> >
> > 1. An error in computing time, or fixing dates; the erroneous
> > reference of an event, circumstance, or custom to a wrong date. Said
> > etymologically (like prochronism) of a date which is too early, but
> > also used of too late a date, which has been distinguished as parachronism.
> >
> > What bothers me is the "hence" in sense 2.  A "therefore" makes it
> > seem that what follows -- "anything which was proper to a *former*
> > age" -- is an explanation of "Anything done or existing out of date",
> > not one of several possible examples of that.
> >
> > Joel
> >
> >
> > >DanG
> > >
> > >
> > >On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > ><wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > Subject:      Re: "anachronism" and the OED
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > I agree completely.
> > > >
> > > > When I was in seventh grade, in the Mesolithic, we were told that the
> > > > striking clock in _Julius Caesar_ was an "anachronism."  It may even
> > have
> > > > been in a printed footnote in our textbook.
> > > >
> > > > I remember because, needless to say, I'd never heard the word
> > "anachronism"
> > > > before. For a while I confused it  with "anarchism," which I believe I
> > > > first
> > > > read on the back of a bubblegum card, in connection with the
> > assassination
> > > > of Pres. McKinley by Leon Czolgosz in 1901.
> > > >
> > > > Predictable whine: They don't make bubblegum cards like they used to.
> > > >
> > > > JL
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > Subject:      "anachronism" and the OED
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Sense 2 of "anachronism" is
> > > > >
> > > > > "2. Anything done or existing out of date; hence, anything which was
> > > > > proper to a former age, but is, or, if it existed, would be, out of
> > > > > harmony with the present; also called a practical anachronism. Also
> > > > > transf. of persons."
> > > > >
> > > > > The first clause is general, but the second ("hence ...") seems to
> > > > > restrict anachronisms to things *correct* of a former age but not for
> > > > > the present.  Should this sense not also include the notion of
> > > > > something *incorrect* of a former age, because it is not consistent
> > > > > with that former age?  (Sometimes -- but not always! -- occurring
> > > > > because the thing is true of the present age but has wrongly been
> > > > > applied to the past.)
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, a film of "Lady Audley's Secret" (1860s) has one
> > > > > character referring to another as a "golddigger".  That's a word in
> > > > > harmony (considerably, but politics aside) with the present, but not
> > > > > in use in the 1860s.  Is that not an anachronism?
> > > > >
> > > > > In fact, one quotation in the OED seems to have the sense I find not
> > > > > included:
> > > > > 1864    Round Table 18 June 4/3   She gives them phrases and words
> > > > > which..had their beginning long since that period, and are in fact
> > > > > linguistic anachronisms.
> > > > >
> > > > > Joel
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >
> > > >
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> > truth."
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