eye dialect was RE: nekkid

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Mon Mar 14 16:31:47 UTC 2011 

Charlie is stark correct.

JL

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com>wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: eye dialect was RE: nekkid
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > So: eye-dialect is in the eye of the beholder--the nekkid eye.
>
> That must be it.  The writer wants the readers' eyes and mind to say the
> wo=
> rd as spelled.  And maybe any kind of foespel (phonetic splling) qualifies=
> =2C be it IPA=2C truespel=2C or some tradspel form.  So the IPA could be
> an=
>  eye dialect form?  Why not if put in that context.  I have a bible with
> lo=
> ts of ~forin names with "eye dialect" notation next to them to show how
> pro=
> nounced.
> =20
> Interestingly "naked" and "baked" don't rhyme.  NAY-kid (~naekid) and
> baykd=
>  (~baekd).  I've never heard the term ~nekid much.
>
> Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C then Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now FL 9.
> The FREE English-based phonetic converters=2C URL and text =2C are at
> trues=
> pel.com
>
>
> =20
> =20
> >=20
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------=
> ------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: Charles C Doyle <cdoyle at UGA.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: eye dialect was RE: nekkid
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
> >=20
> > So: eye-dialect is in the eye of the beholder--the nekkid eye.
> >=20
> > --Charlie
> >=20
> > ________________________________________
> > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of
> Jona=
> than Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM]
> > Sent: Monday=2C March 14=2C 2011 9:15 AM
> >=20
> >=20
> > Wikipedia is correct though idiotically expressed.
> >=20
> > "Eye dialect" means nonstandard spelling that's intended to show that a
> > character is ignorant and illiterate=2C regardless of the phonetic
> accura=
> cy of
> > the spelling itself.
> >=20
> > A prime example of eye dialect in the USA would be "uv" for "of." Few
> > Americans make that distinction. OTOH=2C in Irish dialogue written for
> > Americans=2C "uv" is a reasonable=2C if distracting=2C approximation=3B
> i=
> n other
> > words=2C not eye dialect.
> >=20
> > For some=2C "nekkid" is pointless eye dialect for "naked" - pointless
> bec=
> ause
> > that's how almost everybody across a vast region says it. To me=2C it
> isn=
> 't
> > eye-dialect because it represents a nonstandard pronunciation.
> >=20
> > Now=2C if somebody suddenly realized just how ignorant and illiterate
> *I*=
>  am=2C
> > and=2C to prove it=2C represented me as saying "nekkid" instead of
> /nEikI=
> d/ that
> > would be eye dialect=2C regardless of what it would be for Wilson and
> Cha=
> rlie.
> >=20
> >=20
> > (Actually they'd nail it for eye dialect because they know that=2C back
> w=
> here
> > I come from=2C /nEikId/ is normal=3B also=2C I've already told them I say
> > /nEikId/.)
> >=20
> > JL
> >=20
> > On Mon=2C Mar 14=2C 2011 at 8:22 AM=2C Tom Zurinskas <
> truespel at hotmail.co=
> m> wrote:
> >=20
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > > Subject: Re: eye dialect was RE: nekkid
> > >
> > >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> --------
> > >
> > > from wikipedia
> > >
> > > "Eye dialect is the use of non-standard spelling for speech to draw
> > > attention to pronunciation=2C often in regard to the literary
> technique=
>  of
> > > using non-standard spelling to approximate a pronunciation that is
> actu=
> ally
> > > no different from the standard pronunciation but has the effect of
> > > dialectal=2C foreign=2C or uneducated speech."
> > >
> > > This makes no sense. How could using a special spelling "no different
> f=
> rom
> > > standard pronunciation" make it "dialectal=2C foreign or uneducated"
> Un=
> less
> > > the standard is that way? But that would make it a nonstandard
> standard=
> .
> > >
> > > My take is that "eye dialect" as defined is merely a form of tradspel
> > > phonetics. It's a writing system. So this form of phonetics could be
> > > called tradnetics=2C so to speak. The problem here is that not all
> Engl=
> ish
> > > sounds have consistent tradspel forms=2C so they can never be spelled
> i=
> n "eye
> > > dialect". Basically truespel phonetics steps in here to standardize eye
> > > dialect using a phonetics based on English tradspel.
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C then Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now FL 9.
> > > The FREE English-based phonetic converters=2C URL and text =2C are at
> > > truespel.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------
> > > > Date: Sun=2C 13 Mar 2011 17:34:26 -0500
> > > > From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU
> > > > Subject: Re: eye dialect was RE: nekkid
> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > Poster: "Gordon=2C Matthew J."
> > > > Subject: Re: eye dialect was RE: nekkid
> > > >
> > >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> --------
> > > >
> > > > The author gets to decide. People who pronounce 'naked' as [nEkId]
> ma=
> y
> > > interpret 'nekkid' as eye dialect=2C but that doesn't mean the author
> i=
> ntended
> > > it as such. Many readers today would look at spellings like "wut=2C
> w'a=
> t=2C wot'
> > > as eye dialect for "what=2C" but they were used in the 19th-cen. to
> ind=
> icate
> > > marked pronunciations.
> > > >
> > > > -Matt
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
> > > Charles C Doyle [cdoyle at UGA.EDU]
> > > > Sent: Sunday=2C March 13=2C 2011 5:14 PM
> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > Subject: Re: eye dialect was RE: nekkid
> > > >
> > > > But who gets to decide what pronunciations a "marked" and what
> > > "unmarked"? That's the question that Wilson and I were raising.
> > > >
> > > > For some of us=2C the pronunciation [nEkId] is=2C so to speak=2C
> unma=
> rked=3B so
> > > the spelling "nekkid" is=2C for us=2C eye dialect.
> > > >
> > > > And some of us don't pronunce "was" as if spelled "wuz."
> > > >
> > > > --Charlie
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of
> > > Gordon=2C Matthew J. [GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU]
> > > > Sent: Sunday=2C March 13=2C 2011 6:02 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > By way of clarification:
> > > > "eye dialect" refers to respelling of words to reflect their unmarked
> > > pronunciation (e.g. wuz=2C iz=2C uv for was=2C is=2C of). The label
> com=
> es from the
> > > fact that such forms appear to represent distinctive regional or social
> > > dialects but in fact represent the "standard" pronunciation. Thus=2C
> th=
> ey are
> > > dialect for the eye not for the ear.
> > > >
> > > > Pronouncing words according to their spelling is usually called
> "spel=
> ling
> > > pronunciation."
> > > >
> > > > I think it's hard to argue that 'nekkid' is intended as eye dialect
> s=
> ince
> > > it respells the word to represent a marked pronunciation (with /E/
> inst=
> ead
> > > of the unmarked /e/).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -Matt Gordon
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
> =
> Tom
> > > Zurinskas [truespel at HOTMAIL.COM]
> > > > Sent: Sunday=2C March 13=2C 2011 4:01 PM
> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > Subject: Re: nekkid
> > > >
> > > > Isn't "eye dialect" more like "mouth dialect". It ain't one's eyes
> do=
> ing
> > > the talking. Folks are just spelling how they talk=2C what their
> mouths=
>  are
> > > doing. Their mouths do the talking=2C not their eyes.
> > > >
> > > > Shouldn't "eye dialect" refer to mispronouncing a word because of
> it'=
> s
> > > spelling=2C like saying for "Arkansas" are-CAN-zis (~Aarkkanzis)
> instea=
> d of
> > > ARE-kin-saw (~Aarkinsau). That way the "eye" is creating the dialect
> fr=
> om
> > > what it sees.
> > > >
> > > > I would assume "nekked" or "nekid" or "neckid" would work as well.
> It=
> 's
> > > not a real word=2C so why not? It's dialectspel=2C spelling how your
> ta=
> lking in
> > > a tradspel (traditional spelling) kind of way.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tom Zurinskas=2C Conn 20 yrs=2C then Tenn 3=2C NJ 33=2C now FL 9.
> > > > The FREE English-based phonetic converters=2C URL and text =2C are at
> > > truespel.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > > Poster: Charles C Doyle
> > > > > Subject: Re: nekkid
> > > > >
> > >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> --------
> > > > >
> > > > > And the synecdoche "butt naked" parallels the Middle English idiom
> > > "belly naked"--obsolete=2C as far as I am aware.
> > > > >
> > > > > --Charlie
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf
> o=
> f
> > > Charles C Doyle [cdoyle at UGA.EDU]
> > > > > Sent: Sunday=2C March 13=2C 2011 10:58 AM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I've always sort of liked "butt naked"! It's so vivid=2C
> picturesqu=
> e . .
> > > . .
> > > > >
> > > > > --Charlie
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf
> o=
> f
> > > Wilson Gray [hwgray at GMAIL.COM]
> > > > > Sent: Saturday=2C March 12=2C 2011 6:17 PM
> > > > > Well=2C that's all right=2C I reckon. Now=2C if there were only a
> w=
> ay to
> > > > > delete from the AmE-speaking language-organ the abominable
> reanalys=
> is=2C
> > > > > _butt-_nekkid!=3B-)
> > > > > --
> > > > > -Wilson
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > >
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> > > >
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> > >
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is=2C you can't handle the
> tru=
> th."
> >=20
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> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >=20
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> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>                                          =
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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