[deep] in the X

Thu Mar 17 08:52:05 UTC 2011

Below are some observations--not much analysis--concerning several "In
the X" metaphors and their "Deep in the X" extensions. The post is a bit
rambling, so skip it if you don't have the patience.

Having watched far too many chef/restaurant/cooking "reality" shows over
the past two years, I noticed several variations on "in the X" formula.
Of course, the same expressions (or variants) appear in other contexts.

Most common variants--at least, in the context of these shows--of "I'm
in trouble" are "in the soup", "in the sauce", "in the stew" and "in the
juice" (just heard the latter on the latest episode of Top Chef today).
At least once I also heard "in the drink". By contrast, "in the weeds"
and, especially, "deep in the weeds" occurs mostly in entirely different
contexts and has a different meaning (but see below). I first saw it at
Talking Points Memo and Josh Marshall even went out of his way to
explain that he meant "wonky, expert details" or "over-involved,
analytical". Later IIRC the phrase was analyzed on LL.
(http://goo.gl/X9Ob1 --With the ever-increasing GB database, it might be
time to update the LL post. Also note that I built this post almost
upside down from the Liberman's LL post.)

I find this to be an interesting contrast. One would have expected
"deep" to go with the liquids that seem to signify "trouble". But,
instead, it goes with the "weeds". In fact, I have not heard "deep" once
in this context on any of the shows. But running a GB search revealed
something different. For one "deep in the soup" occasionally showed up
in one of the connotations of "deep in the weeds"=="very involved".
There were also a handful of hits where "deep in the soup" occurred in
the same "trouble" sense. "Sauce" is problematic because there is a
competing meaning for "alcohol"--so "deep in the sauce" can either mean
"drunk" or "alcoholic". Still, there were a few (less than 10) hits for
"deep in the sauce" meaning "in trouble". "Drink" is somewhat similar to
"sauce", although "deep in the drink" is more rare (less than 20 total).
There is also the problem that "in the drink" could mean "in the water"
(e.g., falling in while surfing or boating). "Deep in the stew" gets 8
hits total, with two literal and the rest all for the same metaphor
(trouble). Oddly enough, of the 12 actual GB hits for "deep in the
juice", only one is on point--the rest are literal. The one? "How to
Cook Like a Top Chef"--from the very show where I heard it today! (And
quite possibly from the same chef--this season, I've heard her use it at
least three times.)

Interestingly, "deep in the weeds" gets more hits than all of the above
combined--but most of them literal. Still, there are groups of metaphors
as well.

One exception--The Making of a Chef (2009). This is interesting--yet
another chef reference for "deep in the X" and, again, it means "trouble":

> He had put his class /deep in the weeds/ today and now he was going to
> hammer them.

A bit further in the list, looks like another exception--and again a
book about chefs, Cooking Dirty: A Story of Life, Sex, Love and Death in
the Kitchen (2010).

> On fryers, the FNG was so /deep in the weeds/ and lost that Dump had
> to crutch him full-time while I racked and emptied the stinking
> steamers, leaving dozens of pounds of crab legs and freezer- burned
> lobster tails and hundreds of clams to die in hotel pans under the
> heat lamps.

And another:

Cooked: from the streets to the stove, from cocaine to foie gras (2008)
> One thing I really respected about Sarah was, no matter how slammed we
> were, no matter how /deep in the weeds/, she would jump on the line
> and bang with the rest of us.

Yet one more appears to have been borrowed and placed in a
non-restaurant context:

A District of Small Talkers (2010)
> All the candidates know that just thirty days after Congressman
> Kellikova's announcement of his candidacy, the campaign is already
> /deep in the weeds/, and are anxious to put him out of his misery.

But there are some "wonky" catches in the first hundred hits, which is
about half the total:

The death and life of American journalism (2010)
> We won't go too /deep in the weeds/ of policy wonkery; instead, we'll
> attempt to provide broad outlines of sound and relevant policy
> initiatives in understandable terms.

The emperor's new clothes: exposing the truth from Watergate to 9/11 (2009)
> Giuliani had responded with facts that were too /deep in the weeds/
> for me to evaluate.

Perfecting Sound Forever: An Aural History of Recorded Music (2010)
> Of course, you had to be pretty /deep in the weeds/ to notice this at
> the time.

The Wall Street Journal Essential Guide to Management (2010)
> But one characteristic of successful dreamers I think of--Francis Ford
> Coppola, Steve Jobs--is that they also have a remarkably deep
> understanding of the industry they work in and the people they lead,
> and they often are willing to get very /deep in the weeds/.

Bill Fitzhue, Heart Seizure (2006)
> "Senator, if they press you for details, just wink at them and say,
> 'Well, now, there's no need to get too /deep in the weeds/ on this.'"
> The senator nodded, then looked mildly confused.

Hedge Fund Operational Due Diligence: Understanding the Risks (2009)
> In certain instances, depending on the particular issues presented by
> the hedge fund in question, getting /deep in the weeds/ to thoroughly
> vet all aspects of certain issues is very advisable.

What It Really Takes to Get into the Ivy League & Other Highly Selective
Colleges (2003)
> Getting tangled /deep in the weeds/ of the nuances of the admissions
> process will most likely lead to overlooking the real opportunities to
> affect change and develop the candidate's natural talents, ...

There are a few "involved" (perhaps also including the last book above):

The complete idiot's guide to jogging and running (1998)
> Be more careful about not overdoing it when you're /deep in the weeds/
> of a major project at work, or you've just moved, or a loved one is
> ill in the hospital.

Mountaineering: Training and Preparation (2010)
> Additionally, I have been on expeditions where the leaders are
> performing so well on the climbing front that they find themselves
> /deep in the weeds/, immersed in their activity and unable to see the
> big picture.

Rocky Road (2010)
> "During the brainstorming phase, we're /deep in the weeds/ of the
> problem. Egos kick in, and disputants are often reluctant to admit
> mistakes or look for another way through the conflict."

Built to win: creating a world-class negotiating organization (2009)
> It is remarkable how much benefit can accrue from simply having
> someone help negotiators think through their basic process and
> assumptions when they are /deep in the weeds/.

Spelling Love with an X: A Mother, a Son, and the Gene That Binds Them
(2007)
> I was still /deep in the weeds/ of adjustment, and my anger and
> bitterness at what had happened to my family dominated my better side.

There are also two oddballs:

The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing (2009)
> Captain Archer could not avoid worrying that a Romulan mother ship
> might be lurking /deep in the weeds/ of this system's Kuiper belt even
> now, just beyond the ability of the grid to detect.

This one is actually somewhere between the literal "in the weeds" and
the recent metaphorical "deep in the weeds"--there is a notion of
"hiding in the midst" that's associated with "the weeds", but there is
no "involved" sense that's now dominating.

> 'In the Weeds' got its start a few years ago, when I myself was /deep
> in the weeds/, working days as a reporter for a newspaper in Oklahoma
> City and nights as a waiter at a fancy restaurant.

This one claims to be from Story magazine (1990--no issue information
from snippet) and the tags appear to be accurate. If so, this is the
earliest of the printed texts that show non-literal "deep in the weeds".
The meaning is somewhat similar to that in the Star Trek novel (the one
immediately above), but it's also easy to see how the "wonky" and
"involved" connotations would have evolved from it.

If there is a non-fiction book about newspaper reporting that's called
"In the Weeds", I can't find it--there is an unrelated novel of the same
title, another semi-fiction book by James Sala, and a 2000 film (with
Molly Ringwald) whose plot revolves around ... a restaurant. If that's
not enough, there is one more book (2003): In the Weeds: A Volume of
Chef Tales. And there is also a 2009 film short that's described in IMDB
as "A rundown on how a restaurant in New York City works." What is it
with the "In the X" metaphors and restaurant chefs???

David Remnick used "in the weeds", with clarification, in his recent bio
of Obama (The Bridge: The Life and Rise of Barack Obama. 2010):

http://goo.gl/T51Hu
> He had spent some time shooting the breeze with Obama in the hallways
> of the Capitol, and he could readily tell that Obama was a
> hyper-ambitious freshman, someone with "wide eyes," as he put it, who
> wanted to pass landmark legislation covering health care, economic
> justice for the poor, job training, and many other issues. Shomon
> thought that Obama would be better off if he "stayed in the weeds," as
> the saying went in Springfield, "because if you stick out too much,
> too soon, you get whacked."

Now, let me get back to that 2006 LL post (Mark Liberman).

> The metaphor here seems to be that when you wander off the beaten
> path, you can explore arbitrary amounts of not-very-valuable
> intellectual foliage ("weeds") without getting closer to your
> conceptual destination.

While this relates to the "wonky" and "involved" meanings, it doesn't
seem entirely right, at least, not in the contexts that I've been
tracking. Unlike the kitchen/waiting (restaurant) metaphor, the
intellectual one is often positive, giving emphasis to nuance and
detail. The sense seems closer to "exploring the jungle" than "lost in
the tall grass". At issue is whether the "intellectual foliage" really
is valuable or not. When it is, the exploration is "wonky". When it
isn't, we get the "lost" sense with "unnecessary details". That's OK:

> Some examples seem to be in between the Good Weeds ("pursuing
> details") usage and the Bad Weeds ("overwhelmed by demands") usage: a
> Neutral Weeds use, meaning something jlike "busy with details"

LL post also mentions the restaurants (quoting Chris DeLorenzo's blog):

> Anyone who's been a waiter at a busy restaurant for any length of time
> surely knows what I'm talking about. It's a dream where you find
> yourself "in the weeds" (waitering term meaning so busy and behind
> that your head spins a la The Exorcist), so deep in the weeds that
> there doesn't seem any way out, that all is hopeless, and that with
> each passing moment the weeds get thicker and thicker.

Again, the analysis seems a bit spurious, especially with so many other
"in the X" metaphors. If the usage were limited only to liquid or
semi-liquid X, one could confidently conclude that the whole point is
"drowning". But how does one "drown" in the weeds? The "busy and behind"
notion actually seems right on the money--at least, from what I've seen
on these TV shows. It's not that there is not way out, but there are
increasing obstacles in the way--not just weeds "getting thicker and
thicker", but think of trying to swim in the soup. But if this is the
focus, how can "in the juice" be explained? So it's back to drowning, I
suppose.

The LL post's update does not seem to help either: there are several
suggestions of sports-related derivation, particularly golf. But all the
sports uses are not metaphorical and all are negative. This would not
allow neutral or positive connotations, nor would it explain the
non-weed Xs. But that's a personal view--I see sports usage as just one
of many literal "in the weeds", but it does not mean that someone could
not have picked it up and transformed it.

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