Rum, sodomy, lash; rum, bum, baccer and other expressions

Mon May 2 22:37:15 UTC 2011

Actually I'd forgotten that important resource, but I'm not surprised that
you found no citations there.

Grove Press published/publishes _My Secret Life_ and a dozen or so
other real exx. of Victorian porn, and I had to attend to them in the
creation of HDAS for vocabulary research. (Only! Only! Do you understand!
Only!) The fact is that there's almost nothing with explicit
sexual vocabulary available from America in that period.

I suppose most of the Grove books are online now.  At any rate, their slang
vocabulary was mostly restricted to the obvious and (I'd guess) a couple of
dozen less obvious or obscure items. (I remember "pego" and a plainly vulval
"duff" - cf. Brit./U.S "fanny.")

"Rum, bum, and baccy" just strikes me as too colorful, or perhaps just too
nautical, for those writers.

Also, I don't see it in Farmer & Henley (a1890-1903), which would be
the first place to look. They apparently included every naughty item they
could find.  And they found plenty.

JL

On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>wrote:

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> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Rum, sodomy, lash; rum, bum, baccer and other expressions
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > I doubt you'll find any citations that early, Garson.
> >
> > Before ca1930 the phrase would have been  unprintable  outside of sub
> rosa
> > publications, legal testimony, etc., and its evidently restricted
> > circulation would have made a printed appearance even less likely.
>
> Many thanks to Jonathan and others for responses. Social barriers
> restricted the appearance of some phrases in conventionally printed
> works. Hence, the search is difficult and success may not be possible.
> Yet, repositories such as the Jack Horntip collection exist.
>
> I used a Google domain-restricted search to look in the Horntip
> collection without success. Yet, I do not know if other comparable
> repositories have been constructed. In addition, some "unprintable"
> diary entries from the past can now be published. My query was aimed
> at identifying alternative strategies. Since, you are one of the top
> experts, Jonathan, I value your comment.
> Garson
>
> > Partridge's datings, when not specifically backed by quotes, are mostly
> > educated guesses. Not necessarily wrong, mind you; but guesses.
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: Rum, sodomy, lash; rum, bum, baccer and other
> expressio=
> > ns
> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > ------
> >>
> >> Isn't "rum bum" one thing?
> >> DanG
> >>
> >> On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Garson O'Toole
> >> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> >> > Subject:      Rum, sodomy, lash; rum, bum, baccer and other
> expressions
> >> >
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > ------
> >> >
> >> > Naval tradition? Monstrous. Nothing but rum, sodomy, prayers, and the
> >> lash.
> >> >
> >> > These words are attributed second-hand to Winston Churchill in a diary
> >> > entry dated 1950 as noted in the YBQ. When I looked into this quote a
> >> > year ago I tried to find similar expression or precursors. There is an
> >> > entry in "A Dictionary of Catch Phrases" edited by Eric Partridge and
> >> > Paul Beale for another saying:
> >> >
> >> > beer, bum and bacca (tobacco).     The reputed, almost legendary,
> >> > pleasures of a sailor's life; since c. 1870. Since c. 1910, there has
> >> > existed the var. rum, bum and bacca. In C20, usu. baccy, in both
> >> > versions. ...
> >> >
> >> >
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3DjKVNWvTe6RcC&q=3D%22bad+old%22#v=3Ds=
> > nippet&
> >> >
> >> > I have not yet been able to find citations circa 1870 or circa 1910
> >> > for these expressions. Perhaps they appear in diaries. Any suggestions
> >> > for locating early examples of these expressions?
> >> >
> >> > Here is an instance that is probably dated 1937 with 'baccer instead
> >> > of bacca or baccy.
> >> >
> >> > Cite: 1937, Witch in the Wilderness by Holdridge Desmond, GB Page 244,
> >> > [Quinn & Boden Company, Rahway, New Jersey], Harcourt, Brace and
> >> > Company, New York. (Google Books snippet, Not verified on paper; Data
> >> > may be inaccurate)
> >> >
> >> > He turned to the men. "Nothing seems to have happened, but keep your
> >> > guns with you. We'll get on with floating this baby=97but no more
> Sunda=
> > y
> >> > School. When we get her off we'll just leave that bunch right here in
> >> > the bushes and take the ship to some island somewhere where we won't
> >> > be bothered, and life'll just be rum, bum, and 'baccer."
> >> >
> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DDEVCAAAAIAAJ&q=3Dbum#search_anchor
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --=20
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
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> >
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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