up-state/down-state

[paul johnson]

Paul Johnson
     What do the people in Missouri say, two major cities each on an
east west border axis?

On 5/18/2011 8:41 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote:
> The "upstate"/"downstate" usage seems clear for New York and Illinois.  Are there any other states where there is a metropolis or a relatively heavily settled area and the rest of the state is "up" or "down" -- Maine? New Hampshire? New Jersey? Delaware? Georgia? Florida? Michigan? Wisconsin? Minnesota? Louisiana? Arizona? Utah? Nevada? Oregon? Alaska?
>
> To me, the word "uptown" sometimes has a connotation of upscale-ness, as opposed to the grittier "downtown".  Think of the Billy Joel song "Uptown Girl."
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Newman [michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 9:19 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: up-state/down-state
>
> As a native NYC resident, for me I'd say upstate is pretty much anywhere north of the metro area. Since the border of the metro area is vague, so is the line for where upstate begins. I have heard people use it to refer to Westchester, but I wouldn't myself. Ex guv Pataki (from Peekskill in northern Westchester Co.) was sometimes referred as being from Upstate.  Isn't it the same, only with downstate for Chicago?
>
> Something parallel happens with Downtown and Uptown Manhattan only with the scale vastly reduced. Is Greenwich Village downtown? SoHo/Little Italy/the Lower East Side? Tribeca/Chinatown? I think you'd get different answers from the same person, but the amount of agreement on a Downtown designation would increase as the area referred to lies farther south on the Island. It might also increase if there person is or is from farther uptown.
>
> I never referred to Harlem as being uptown as a kid growing up in Queens, but when I went to High School in Manhattan I found that Black kids generally did. On the other hand, Washington Heights (which is north of Harlem) and Inwood at the northern tip would definitely be uptown even for me a hick from Queens.
>
> Michael Newman
> Associate Professor of Linguistics
> Queens College/CUNY
> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
>
>
>
> On May 18, 2011, at 8:45 AM, David Barnhart wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       David Barnhart<dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
>> Subject:      up-state/down-state
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The "why" for up- vs. down- in the terms is suggested to have something to
>> do with river flow direction in some cases, anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>> I suggest that people take a look at:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.)    ADS-L archives (205 messages contain _down-state_ or _downstate_,
>> although not all pertain to this discussion)
>>
>> 2.)    The entry for _down_ (B., 1), in which one quotation in particular
>> struck me:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1943 LANE map 720 .. In western Vermont and in central and western
>> Massachusetts the regional orientation is very complicated and varied. .
>>
>>
>>
>> I live in Poughkeepsie, NY, about 75 miles north of New York City
>> (approximately the same distance from Albany to our north).  I have lived
>> most of my life somewhere in the lower Hudson Valley-on the east bank of the
>> Hudson River.  The MetroNorth Commuter RR starts its early morning service
>> from Poughkeepsie.   I do not feel that I live "upstate".  Rhinebeck and
>> Hudson and Kingston, not very far to the north and west, seem upstate to me.
>> I'm not sure about Newburgh to the south on the west bank of the Hudson.  My
>> son, William (age 21, at last), this morning when prodded said Albany is
>> upstate to him and NYC is not downstate.  Give me a day or two and I'll
>> query some local folks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>>
>> Barnhart at highlands.com
>>
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