inaccurate Billy Sunday quote

Sun Nov 20 14:54:19 UTC 2011

I like, "Jesus, you're sure taking a lot of back talk from the
Kaiser...I wish, Lord, you'd tell America to wipe Germany off the
map."

JL

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Stephen Goranson <goranson at duke.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: inaccurate Billy Sunday quote
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> FWIW, a related quote from New-York tribune., March 23, 1917:
>
> "I'd be a poor mutt of a spineless pacifist," said Billy, recounting the story [of his father in the Civil War, given above], "if I didn't show up at the front rank, now wouldn't I!"
>
> http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1917-03-23/ed-1/seq-1/;words=Billy+Sunday+regulation+Mutt?date1=1917&rows=20&searchType=advanced&proxdistance=5&state=&date2=1918&ortext=&proxtext=&phrasetext=&andtext=billy+sunday+regulation+mutt&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=7
>
> Stephen Goranson
> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
> ________________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM]
> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 9:06 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] inaccurate Billy Sunday quote
>
> Roger Bruns's bio of BS, _Preacher_ (U. of Ill. P., 1992), cites only
> the NYT version - from a an "unidentified  newspaper clipping" among
> BS's papers.
>
> If that's the only version BS (or his secretary) preserved, besides
> being the earliest in print (published the day after he spoke), it
> should probably be taken as definitive for now.
>
> None of the NY papers at the Old Fulton website appear to have
> recorded the remark.
>
> JL
>
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:36 AM, Garson O'Toole
> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: inaccurate Billy Sunday quote
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Below is a link for a match to a common modern variant of the Billy
>> Sunday quotation (i.e., it contains the subphrase "dies fighting")
>> that Google Books assigns a date of 1969. The quotation has a footnote
>> numbered 15 attached to it.
>>
>> Cite info: 1969 [according to GB], Preachers present arms: the role of
>> the American churches and clergy in World Wars I and II, with some
>> observations on the war in Vietnam by Ray Hamilton Abrams
>>
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=YMQhAQAAIAAJ&q=Godforsaken#search_anchor
>>
>> To see the text and footnote one may follow the link above. The
>> snippet shows the footnote number 15, but it is often difficult to
>> find and extract the text of a footnote when GB restricts access.
>> Usually it is necessary to examine the book on paper. In this case it
>> may be worthwhile to follow this lead because WorldCat indicates that
>> the author Ray Hamilton Abrams wrote a 1933 thesis on this topic. The
>> 1969 volume might be an updated version of his thesis. He may have the
>> proper expertise.
>>
>> Preachers present arms: a study of the war-time attitudes and
>> activities of the churches and the clergy in the United States,
>> 1914-1918
>> by Ray Hamilton Abrams
>> Thesis/dissertation : Thesis/dissertation : Manuscript : Microfilm
>> Archival Material
>> Year: 1933.
>>
>> Below is another link to a match for the common modern variant of the
>> quotation. GB assigns a date of 1968 and this quotation also has a
>> footnote attached: number 9. It may be worthwhile to access this
>> volume and find out what the footnote says.
>>
>> Cite info: 1968 [according to GB], War and conscience in America by
>> Edward Le Roy Long
>>
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=ngRLAAAAIAAJ&q=trenches#search_anchor
>>
>> Garson
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Jonathan Lighter
>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: inaccurate Billy Sunday quote
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Since he uttered the words in 1917, contemporaneous records take
>>> precedence over later versions.
>>>
>>> If a genuine 1917 appearance of the seemingly erroneous wording turns
>>> up, well and good.
>>>
>>> Till then, we have to go with what we have.
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: inaccurate Billy Sunday quote
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Just wondering, how do you know which quote is inaccurate? Billy Sunday was
>>>> a traveling evangelist speaking to large crowds without amplification. He
>>>> could have delivered different versions of his sermon to different crowds
>>>> at different times, making all the versions "accurate".
>>>>
>>>> Or am I missing something?
>>>> DanG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> Subject:      inaccurate Billy Sunday quote
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Several sources attribute the following patriotic statement to the
>>>>> whiz-bang American evangelist Billy Sunday in 1917:
>>>>>
>>>>> "The man who breaks all the rules but at last dies fighting in the
>>>>> trenches is better than you Godforsaken mutts who won't enlist."
>>>>>
>>>>> The N.Y. Times (Apr. 9, 1917), p. 1, quotes Sunday as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>> "The soldier who breaks every regulation, yet is found on the firing
>>>>> line in the hour of battle, is better than the God-forsaken mutt who
>>>>> won't enlist, and does all he can to keep others from enlisting. In
>>>>> these days all are patriots or traitors, to your country and the cause
>>>>> of Jesus Christ."
>>>>>
>>>>> A slightly different version:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1917 _The Outlook_ (Apr. 17) 687: [A] man who breaks every military
>>>>> regulation and then goes into the trenches to face shot and shell is
>>>>> better than the miserable mutt who won't enlist - and who tells others
>>>>> not to enlist. In these days a man must be a patriot or a traitor.
>>>>>
>>>>> JL
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>>>
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>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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