inaccurate Billy Sunday quote

Dan Goncharoff thegonch at GMAIL.COM
Sun Nov 20 22:54:01 UTC 2011 

Old Fulton has the NY Herald story of the same speech, from April 9, 1917,
with a different version, a bit closer to your original 'inaccurate' quote.
So which is definitive?

"I believe that a poor church member
Is better than none at all. The soldier
who breaks every regulation is better than
the godforsaken mutt who won't even
enlist. In these days you must be either
a patriot or a traitor.

DanG


On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: inaccurate Billy Sunday quote
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Roger Bruns's bio of BS, _Preacher_ (U. of Ill. P., 1992), cites only
> the NYT version - from a an "unidentified  newspaper clipping" among
> BS's papers.
>
> If that's the only version BS (or his secretary) preserved, besides
> being the earliest in print (published the day after he spoke), it
> should probably be taken as definitive for now.
>
> None of the NY papers at the Old Fulton website appear to have
> recorded the remark.
>
> JL
>
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:36 AM, Garson O'Toole
> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: inaccurate Billy Sunday quote
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Below is a link for a match to a common modern variant of the Billy
> > Sunday quotation (i.e., it contains the subphrase "dies fighting")
> > that Google Books assigns a date of 1969. The quotation has a footnote
> > numbered 15 attached to it.
> >
> > Cite info: 1969 [according to GB], Preachers present arms: the role of
> > the American churches and clergy in World Wars I and II, with some
> > observations on the war in Vietnam by Ray Hamilton Abrams
> >
> >
> http://books.google.com/books?id=YMQhAQAAIAAJ&q=Godforsaken#search_anchor
> >
> > To see the text and footnote one may follow the link above. The
> > snippet shows the footnote number 15, but it is often difficult to
> > find and extract the text of a footnote when GB restricts access.
> > Usually it is necessary to examine the book on paper. In this case it
> > may be worthwhile to follow this lead because WorldCat indicates that
> > the author Ray Hamilton Abrams wrote a 1933 thesis on this topic. The
> > 1969 volume might be an updated version of his thesis. He may have the
> > proper expertise.
> >
> > Preachers present arms: a study of the war-time attitudes and
> > activities of the churches and the clergy in the United States,
> > 1914-1918
> > by Ray Hamilton Abrams
> > Thesis/dissertation : Thesis/dissertation : Manuscript : Microfilm
> > Archival Material
> > Year: 1933.
> >
> > Below is another link to a match for the common modern variant of the
> > quotation. GB assigns a date of 1968 and this quotation also has a
> > footnote attached: number 9. It may be worthwhile to access this
> > volume and find out what the footnote says.
> >
> > Cite info: 1968 [according to GB], War and conscience in America by
> > Edward Le Roy Long
> >
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=ngRLAAAAIAAJ&q=trenches#search_anchor
> >
> > Garson
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: inaccurate Billy Sunday quote
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Since he uttered the words in 1917, contemporaneous records take
> >> precedence over later versions.
> >>
> >> If a genuine 1917 appearance of the seemingly erroneous wording turns
> >> up, well and good.
> >>
> >> Till then, we have to go with what we have.
> >>
> >> JL
> >>
> >> On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> >>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> >>> Subject:      Re: inaccurate Billy Sunday quote
> >>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Just wondering, how do you know which quote is inaccurate? Billy
> Sunday was
> >>> a traveling evangelist speaking to large crowds without amplification.
> He
> >>> could have delivered different versions of his sermon to different
> crowds
> >>> at different times, making all the versions "accurate".
> >>>
> >>> Or am I missing something?
> >>> DanG
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>> -----------------------
> >>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>> Subject:      inaccurate Billy Sunday quote
> >>>>
> >>>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Several sources attribute the following patriotic statement to the
> >>>> whiz-bang American evangelist Billy Sunday in 1917:
> >>>>
> >>>> "The man who breaks all the rules but at last dies fighting in the
> >>>> trenches is better than you Godforsaken mutts who won't enlist."
> >>>>
> >>>> The N.Y. Times (Apr. 9, 1917), p. 1, quotes Sunday as follows:
> >>>>
> >>>> "The soldier who breaks every regulation, yet is found on the firing
> >>>> line in the hour of battle, is better than the God-forsaken mutt who
> >>>> won't enlist, and does all he can to keep others from enlisting. In
> >>>> these days all are patriots or traitors, to your country and the cause
> >>>> of Jesus Christ."
> >>>>
> >>>> A slightly different version:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1917 _The Outlook_ (Apr. 17) 687: [A] man who breaks every military
> >>>> regulation and then goes into the trenches to face shot and shell is
> >>>> better than the miserable mutt who won't enlist - and who tells others
> >>>> not to enlist. In these days a man must be a patriot or a traitor.
> >>>>
> >>>> JL
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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