Maddened by Mad Men

[Hunter, Lynne R CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-PACIFIC, 71700]

My original objection--based on personal memory--was that I didn't think people were already using the expression "hold _down_ the fort" in 1962. (Ben Zimmer and others have corrected me on that.) My complaint had nothing to do with its being a cliché. I do admit to favoring "hold the fort" because it strikes me as more colorful and evocative (and often more applicable) than its bland variant.

LRH


-----Original Message-----

Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 15:10
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Maddened by Mad Men

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Poster:       Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET>
Subject:      Re: Maddened by Mad Men
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What is the particular objection to its use in Mad Men, given that it is not
anachronistic?

One might consider the phrase to be silly or overused, but it's certainly a
common expression and it's appearance in dialogue in a fictional TV series
is natural and to be expected. Naturalistic dialogue is one of the hallmark
of shows like this. The stock in trade of Ad men is the cliché; so it should
be with Mad Men.


-----Original Message-----

Hunter, Lynne R CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-PACIFIC, 71700
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 5:43 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Maddened by Mad Men

I understand what you're saying, but it seems to me (without having
carefully thought this out) that "holding down" is generally used to
mean something like "to retain [something]" or "keep [something] in
place," so in the case under scrutiny, "holding down the fort" would
seem to suggest just holding the fort in place or keeping it intact in a
general sort of way, whereas "holding the fort" suggests "holding ground
[against an adversary]," and is linked (in my mind, anyway) to "holding
off invaders," "holding back an onslaught," "holding out against the
enemy," a castle "stronghold," and so forth. In other words, "hold the
fort" (to me) implies the idea of defending against an aggressor.
Thoughts?

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Shapiro, Fred
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 13:57
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Maddened by Mad Men

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Poster:       "Shapiro, Fred" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Maddened by Mad Men
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Isn't this just an example of the phrasal verb "to hold down,"
documented by the OED back to 1891 and by now well established in
phrases such as "to hold down a job"?

Fred



________________________________________
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 12:46 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Maddened by Mad Men

Recent annoyance from _Mad Men_: "Miss Holloway can hold down the fort."
"Hold _down_ the fort" is irritating enough in the present day (at least
to my particular ear) without its being ascribed to 1962 speakers. (The
phrase conjures up a flighty outpost flimsily moored to some low-gravity
planet.)

Lynne Hunter

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