"pumpernickel court"

[Dan Goncharoff]

Sorry, I find the topic frustrating because so much of the academic research
is just wrong, and gets repeated by others too lazy to check original
sources.

So, to clarify, the original Pumpernickel court was not metaphorical, just
fictional.

I disagree that Cobban is using 'Pumpernickel Court' as a place name -- it
clearly refers to people, the courtiers, that "could not but be civil".

Whether the 1914 reference to 'a Pumpernickel court' justifies inclusion as
a metaphor in its own right  is not a decision I am qualified to make.

DanG


On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: "pumpernickel court"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sorry for your confusion, Dan.  I did not know
> who invented the dukedom, Carlyle or Thackery,
> which is why I mentioned their names -- so those
> familiar with the duchy could inform me whether
> they used the phrase "pumpernickel court"
> metaphorically or merely as "the court at
> Pumpernickel", where "pumpernickel" would just be
> a place-name, albeit fictional, and thus probably not eligible for the OED.
>
> I too did not find the phrase "pumpernickel
> court" in Vanity Fair, or in Carlyle, although
> GBooks perhaps doesn't have the work in which Carlyle used it.
>
> What I am suggesting is that in 1914, in
> Crawford's book, the phrase has become
> metaphorical, and thus perhaps eligible for the
> OED.  (And Cobban's 1894 use, while still a
> place-name, is at least not Carlyle or Thackery.)
>
> Joel
>
> At 9/27/2011 11:59 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> >I am very, very confused.
> >
> >Carlyle invented the fictional dukedom of Pumpernickel, and Thackery
> >borrowed the place for his Vanity Fair. Carlyle also invented the
> >"Pumpernickel court", ie, the court at Pumpernickel. It is not a place
> name.
> >
> >I do not believe that either Carlyle or Thackery ever used the phrase
> >"Pumpernickel court'.
> >DanG
> >
> >
> >On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 12:46 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > Subject:      "pumpernickel court"
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > "pumpernickel court" not in OED.
> > >
> > > 1)  1892 --
> > >
> > > In 1830 he left the university and went to
> > > Weimar, and some of his most pleasing
> > > sketches--those in which he describes the life at
> > > Pumpernickel Court--were doubtless drawn from his
> > > recollections of this period of his life.
> > >
> > > The Virginia University Magazine, May-June 1892, page 519.  Here a
> > > place-name.
> > >
> > > This is in an article on
> > > Thackery.  "Pumpernickel" can be found in Vanity
> > > Fair  GBooks says in 9 times in an 1848 edition,
> > > always as a place name; but not "pumpernickel
> > > court".  And perhaps in other Thackery writings, looking at GBooks
> results.
> > >
> > > 2)  1894 --
> > >
> > > "Oh, at Pumpernickel!" said the Colonel. "... At
> > > Pumpernickel, I represented the Queen and Country
> > > in a sort of way, and I was therefore a person of
> > > consequence, to whom the Pumpernickel Court, and
> > > Prince Hermann among the rest, could not but be civil."
> > >
> > > Ä Prince's Love-Story", by J. Maclaran Cobban. in
> > > Chamber's Journal, April 7, 1894, page 217, col.
> > > 1.  [on page 216, col. 2, Hermann is described as
> > > "His Royal Highness Prince Hermannof
> > > Schweiningen-Pumpernickel".]  Still a place-name.
> > >
> > > 3)  1914 --
> > >
> > > Arranging the congregation with due deference to
> > > rank was quite as difficult a process for our
> > > forefathers as the ceremonies of a Pumpernickel court.
> > >
> > > Mary Caroline Crawford, Social Life in Old New
> > > England, page 166.  Becoming metaphorical?
> > >
> > > 4)  1977, but citing an earlier writer --
> > >
> > > Though she was granddaughter to Queen Victoria,
> > > first cousin to the Kaiser and sister to the
> > > Grand Duchess Serge, she came from what Carlyle
> > > contemptuously called 'a Pumpernickel Court'[54].
> > >
> > > Michael Sidney Tyler-Whittle, The Last Kaiser: a
> > > Biography of William II, German Emperor ..., page
> > > 154.  This is a snippet only, but presumably the
> > > source is given in footnote 54.
> > > -----
> > >
> > > Two other GBooks results, allegedly 1966 and
> > > 1981, both also attributing "pumpernickel court"
> > > to (Thomas?) Carlyle.  Is the use attributed to
> > > Carlye metaphorical?  And it would certainly be earlier than 1914.
> > >
> > > Joel
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org