1947 citing in Archie Comic of "butthole." What did it mean?
Cohen, Gerald Leonard
gcohen at MST.EDU
Fri Apr 27 22:28:12 UTC 2012
I believe Jonathan's tentative explanation about butthole referring to a hole where cigarette butts would be thrown
is very possibly correct. See Leo D. Gallagher's _One for the Boneyard: Book Two of the Trilogy "Depraved"_, p. 20,
I'll transcribe the page and post it in the next day or so, unless someone beats me to it.
Gerald Cohen
________________________________
Jonathan Lighter, Fri 4/27/2012 7:19 AM wrote:
Where's vulgar "butthole" attested to in 1942?
I don't doubt it. Just curious.
The discussion is unpersuasive for reasons already covered here - despite
the use of "extrascriptorial" which I intend to adopt right away.
Here's a more imaginative and no less plausible (i.e., equally implausible)
explanation, but one based on something more than a rural English idiom for
"cul de sac."
Montana served in World War II. In training no littering of any kind was
tolerated. Cigarette butts were frequent offenders. If a cigarette was seen
on the floor or ground in the vicinity of a trainee, the drill sergeant
would make him "police that butt!" (i.e., pick it up).
The next stage - as I've read more than once - was for the victim to dig a
deep, deep hole and bury the butt. And cover it up again. Conceivably
somebody in Montana's hearing referred to this job as "digging a butt
hole." Maybe a "butthole job" became a catch phrase among Montana's
friends.
Armed with that idiom and not making a connection with the anatomical term
(or making it and shrugging it off because "nobody would think of it and I
shouldn't have either"), Montana coined - or repeated - the adjective
"butthole" meaning "(of a job) difficult or tedious." In that case, his
greatest daring would have been to use it predicatively.
That doesn't explain how the word got by the editors. And it's still only a
convoluted story that I don't believe either. But what's the alternative?
Hey, I give up. It's an unsolved mystery of the universe.
JL
On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 11:13 PM, Ben Zimmer
<bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu>wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject: Re: 1947 citing in Archie Comic of "butthole." What did it
> mean?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Further discussion by James McElvenny on Fully (sic), an Australian
> linguablog:
>
> http://blogs.crikey.com.au/fullysic/2012/04/27/kind-of-butthole/
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Allow me to recommend HDAS as a more informative source for "bunghole"
> > than the unrevised OED.
> >
> > I'll also qualify my previous answer. "Bunghole" would be acceptable in
> > a cartoon if it referred to the hole in a barrel. But even the slightest
> > suggestion of an anatomical meaning would not have passed.
> >
> > How common was it in the U.S. to refer to a barrel as a "butt"? I'd
> think
> > it was very rare outside the industry.
> >
> > But the real mysteries for me are how Montana's word got printed and why
> > anatomical "butthole" was so uncommon before the 1960s.
> >
> > SWAG: It was used primarily in the South and Midwest, which were short
> on
> > both naturalistic novelists and unflinching dialectologists. Also, IIRC,
> > even naturalistic novels are scanty on that kind of reference until the
> > '60s and '70s. But that doesn't explain what it was doing in "Archie."
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > Subject: Re: 1947 citing in Archie Comic of "butthole." What did
> it
> > > mean?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > 1. No.
> > >
> > > 2. No.
> > >
> > > 3. Yes.
> > >
> > > 4. Possibly, but I'd think it wouldn't.
> > >
> > > "Bunghole" is not used predicatively either.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > Subject: Re: 1947 citing in Archie Comic of "butthole." What did
> > > > it
> > > > mean?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > At 4/25/2012 10:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > > > > > Is there any possibility that "butthole" could have meant
> "bottom
> > > > > > of
> > > > the
> > > > >barrel"?
> > > >
> > > > A la "bung-hole", which JL mentions casually below but astonishingly
> > > > does not call attention to?
> > > >
> > > > 1) Did "bung-hole" ever mean "disagreeable"? Or whatever Archie
> > > > meant by "Oh, it gets kinda butthole at times."
> > > >
> > > > 2) Could someone possibly have transformed "bung-hole" into
> > > > "butthole"?
> > > >
> > > > 3) That still leaves questions, including how it got past the
> > > > censors.
> > > >
> > > > 4) Even "bung-hole" might not have passed the censors -- it was used
> > > > to mean "anus" in a 1611 dictionary, in the definition of a type of
> > > > fish, so presumably it was well-understood in that sense then. (But
> > > > apparently not used later, I conclude from the absence of additional
> > > > quotations in the OED.)
> > > >
> > > > Joel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >It all depends on what "means" means. If it means, "What did it
> mean
> > > > > to
> > > > >Bob Montana?" I think we have to say that we have no idea beyond
> > > > >"disagreeable (in some unspecified way)," and we believe that solely
> > > from
> > > > >context. Remember, Montana is the only person in human history known
> > > > > to
> > > > >have used "butthole" predicatively, and even he only printed it (God
> > > knows
> > > > >how) one time.
> > > > >
> > > > >If we take the strip at face value, either it was a word-and-meaning
> > > that
> > > > >Montana overheard and innocently chose to pass on, or else he
> > > > > invented
> > > it
> > > > >for the sake of the strip. The latter seems awfully unlikely,
> > > > > because
> > > it
> > > > >implies an awareness that "butthole" has negative associations. It
> > > > >certainly would be a coincidence if Montana had coined a word from
> > > > > whole
> > > > >cloth that later became a common vulgarism.
> > > > >
> > > > >If the photo images show what loggers seem to have referred to
> > > technically
> > > > >as a "butthole," that would essentially prove a pre-1904 currency of
> > > > > the
> > > > >anatomical term. But maybe the photographers just thought it looked
> > > like
> > > > > butthole to them.
> > > > >
> > > > >Or did the appearance of a perfectly innocent "butthole" in "Archie"
> > > > >actually introduce the word into American speech via a million
> > > > dirty-minded
> > > > >teenagers?
> > > > >
> > > > >Sounds crazy and undoubtedly *is* crazy. However, not even Berrey &
> > > > > Van
> > > > >den Bark's 1942/43 _American Thesaurus of Slang_, compiled in
> > > > > big-city
> > > Los
> > > > >Angeles in Montana's home state of California, lists "butthole" in
> > > > > any
> > > > >sense.
> > > > >
> > > > >Besides "ass" and "butt" itself, it does contain, on p. 151,
> > > > >"Ass-hole...bum-hole, bung-hole,...a-hole" and even the
> > > > > extraordinarily
> > > > >uncommon (and possibly erroneous) "slop chute."
> > > > >
> > > > >The absence of "butthole" is certainly strange. But it could have
> > > > > been
> > > an
> > > > >oversight.
> > > > >
> > > > >As for the willful suppression of vulgar associations, I'm still
> > > > > amazed
> > > by
> > > > >the innocuousness of "male" and "female" "screws."
> > > > >
> > > > >When I was a UFO buff in the 1960s, I learned that sometimes *no*
> > > > >explanation seems to make sense. For now, this appears to be one of
> > > those
> > > > >cases.
> > > > >
>
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