origin of dese dem dose in NYCE

[Laurence Horn]

On Feb 12, 2012, at 6:27 PM, Paul Johnston wrote:

> Don't forget  that TH-stopping isn't unique to NYC.  It's found in nearly every large, industrial Northern city I can think of--and they all attracted a multitude of ethnic groups without theta or eth, so which group started it isn't easy to determine.

And in some very non-large non-cities, such as the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, where it's a shibboleth (along with others) of "Youpertalk".  Finnish substrate effects seem plausible in that case.

LH

>   NYC does have more dentalization of apico-alveolar consonants than most (though I associate the extension to all /t d n/ with Italian-Americans within this area), but Philly also does this, at least.
>
> Paul Johnston
> On Feb 12, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Victor Steinbok <aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I thought the Dutch in the now-city were more "urbane" (traders and
>> craftsmen) and the ones on the river were farmers. The patrician estates
>> came later, as the earlier settlers claimed primacy over the later ones.
>> There is a recent article (2005) connecting American porches to
>> Old-World Dutch architecture, spreading from the Hudson Valley out. It
>> might be useful in getting at some of that history. http://goo.gl/x9qIN
>>
>>    VS-)
>>
>> NB: The link is only to the first page in JSTOR. Most libraries do not
>> subscribe to Winterhur Portfolio, so the article may have to be obtained
>> through ILL, if you need it.
>>
>> On 2/12/2012 2:15 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>>> At 2/12/2012 01:49 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote:
>>>> Wouldn't lack of these features in Downstate speech be sufficient to
>>>> negate the Dutch theory? If Dutch influence were responsible, shouldn't
>>>> it be heard all along the Hudson?
>>> Because the Dutch in the Hudson River Valley were patrician
>>> landholders of vast estates, and the Dutch in New York City were the
>>> lower sorts?  (I've lost track of where "it" is heard  -- NYC, up
>>> river, or both.)
>>>
>>> Joel
>>
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