origin of dese dem dose in NYCE

[Joel S. Berson]

At 2/13/2012 03:25 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>I too was taught to say "Spuyten Duyvil" with /aI /, in NYC public
>school in the 1950s.
>
>I've never heard it pronounced any other way.

When I was a lad I lived and went to high school on one side of
Spuyten Duyvil* and then to my college's football games on the other
side.  (See the image from Inwood Hill park on Wikipedia for a clue
to the college.)

Without the benefit of knowledge of phonetic alphabets, I pronounced
and still pronounce Spuyten Duyvil as

spite-'n-dive'l.

Joel

* Meaning the creek, not some disputed neighborhood of Riverdale.


>JL
>
>On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter
><wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >>Can you find any other evidence of Dutch or German influence
> outside of lexicon?
> >
> > And how could you be sure?
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Michael Newman
> > <michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu> wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Michael Newman <michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU>
> >> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael Newman
> >> Associate Professor of Linguistics
> >> Queens College/CUNY
> >> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Feb 13, 2012, at 6:01 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> >>
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> >>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> >>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> >>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> OTOH, the non-Dutch theory suffers from concluding that, although
> >>> Dutch and German were a dominant foreign language in NYC from the
> >>> beginnings of New Amsterdam through the 19th Century up to the General
> >>> Slocum disaster and WWI, they are thought to have no influence
> >>> whatsoever.
> >>> DanG
> >>> who wonders what accent the German-born John Jacob Astor spoke...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> >>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> >>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> >>>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> The "Dutch" theory and others suffer fatally from the double
> >>>> assumption that there was just one determining factor (a particular
> >>>> foreign language or earlier English dialect) and that a little
> >>>> reflection and "common sense" will identify it.
> >>>>
> >>>> JL
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Ronald Butters
> <ronbutters at aol.com> wrote:
> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> >>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>>> Poster:       Ronald Butters <ronbutters at AOL.COM>
> >>>>> Subject:      Re: origin of dese dem dose in NYCE
> >>>>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This vowel is also heard in New Orleans, and among older
> Black speakers =
> >>>>> in the South. Not too bloody likely that the Dutch had much
> to do with =
> >>>>> it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:23 AM, James A. Landau wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> There is a stereotype that people from Brooklyn pronounce
> /@r/ as /oi/ =
> >>>>> or /ui/.
> >>>>>> ("toidy-toid and toid avenue").
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Could this be, contrary to your statement above, a holdover from Dutc
> >>>>>
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> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
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>
>
>--
>"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
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