"payback"

[Jonathan Lighter]

Of course, "to pay somebody back" has long been familiar. But paying them
back doesn't seem to imply the relatively high level of retaliation usu.
implied in "payback."

Aaah, who knows?  And who really, really cares?

JL

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 5:40 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Interestingly enough, the first U.S. troops in New Guinea were the 96th
> Engineers (Colored). They arrived from Australia in 1942, and were joined
> by the 91st. Both units were stationed at Milne Bay. Australian units
> were stationedthere as well.
>
> So, Wilson, if you can authoritatively date "Payback is a bitch" to before
> the mid '60s, a pretty good case might be made that the "Colored" engineers
> were mainly responsible for the word's presence in the U.S.
>
> JL
>
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: "payback"
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Jonathan Lighter
>> <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> > Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster: Â  Â  Â  Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
>> > Subject: Â  Â  Â "payback"
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Everybody who's been to enough movies or watched enough TV for the past
>> > twenty-odd years is likely to know that "payback" means 'revenge; an
>> act of
>> > vengeance.'
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Fox News and CNN use the word frequently.
>> >
>> > Anyway. OED's definition  2a is "_Austral._ The Australian Aboriginal
>> code
>> > or custom of revenge; an act of revenge carried out according to this
>> code."
>> >
>> > Â Earliest cite is 1935.
>> >
>> > 1926 Merlin Moore Taylor _In the Heart of Black Papua_ Â (N.Y.: Robert
>> M.
>> > McBride) 67: One "pay-back" inevitably leads to another, with the roles
>> > reversed. Ibid.171: Â "It will not be over until the handcuffs are on
>> the
>> > man who led the pay-back," retorted Humphries grimly.
>> >
>> > OED doesn't indicate that this word appears often in novels of the
>> Vietnam
>> > War. Indeed, OED's "1985" ex. was written during that period (unless the
>> > anthologist behind that compilation of various soldiers' letters of the
>> > period was faking it to fool Oxford). Not until 1973 is there an ex. in
>> the
>> > simple sense of revenge (by or against anyone).
>> >
>> > At any rate, it seems likely that the recent U.S. use came via
>> Australian
>> > English. Since "pay-back" seems to have been well established in Papua
>> > before WWII, it also seems likely that the word entered American army
>> usage
>> > unoticed in 1942 or 1943 during the New Guinea Campaign, which involved
>> > both Americans and Australians.
>> >
>> > If we rule out (always a bad idea) independent invention, it would seem
>> > that it took "pay-back" in its general sense more than twenty-five years
>> > from its likely intoduction to catch on detectably in American English,
>> and
>> > maybe another fifteen or so years to become well established.
>> >
>> > (Introduction via Australia after WWII is certainly possible, but I
>> think
>> > that would be at best merely an occasional reinforcement. Beginning in
>> > 1942, thousands of slangy Americans were actually in Papua/New Guinea
>> and
>> > had to learn something about dealing with the locals.)
>> >
>> > JL
>> >
>> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>
>> That's the source of the traditional BE saying,
>>
>> "Payback's a bitch!"
>>
>> no doubt.There were black soldiers in the relevant areas during the
>> relevant time-period, used as porters and for target-practice - great
>> fun! - by the white soldiers.
>>
>> --
>> -Wilson
>> -----
>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint
>> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> -Mark Twain
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>



-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org