famous quote syntactically mangled, nobody notices

Sun Jul 1 14:52:48 UTC 2012

Gen. E. P. Alexander, author if the 1907 passage, was a member of Lee's
staff. He was 27 in 1862. Note that Alexander says "It is told that Lee put
his hand on Longstreet's arm and said...."

Not quite the same as "murmured," which to me suggests "half to himself."

Alexander, moreover, is careful to suggest that he himself didn't hear the
remark, though he was certainly present at Fredericksburg.

Apparently Longstreet doen't mention the supposed remark in his own memoirs.

JL

On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Garson O'Toole
<adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: famous quote syntactically mangled, nobody notices
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This 1907 book presented a second-hand (or third-hand, or fourth-hand)
> account of Lee speaking to Longstreet. Ralph Keyes mentioned this cite
> in The Quote Verifier.
>
> Title: Military Memoirs of a Confederate: A Critical Narrative
> Author: Edward Porter Alexander
> Year: 1907
> http://books.google.com/books?id=kuopAAAAYAAJ&q=%22grow+too%22#v=snippet&
> [Begin excerpt]
> Here Lee and Longstreet stood during most of the fighting, and it is
> told that, on one of the Federal repulses from Marye's Hill, Lee put
> his hand upon Longstreet's arm and said, "It is well that war is so
> terrible, or we would grow too fond of it."
> [End excerpt]
>
> Here is an interesting variant published in 1891 that altered the time
> the quotation was delivered
>
> Title: A history of the Eleventh New Hampshire Regiment, Volunteer Infantry
> Author: Leander Winslow Cogswell
> Year: 1891
> http://books.google.com/books?id=ARdCAAAAIAAJ&q=%22too+fond%22#v=snippet&
> [Begin excerpt]
> General Lee remarked the next morning, as he viewed the ground strewed
> with the Union dead, "It is well this is so terrible: we would grow
> too fond of it!"
> [End excerpt]
>
> This work in 1888 presented an extended version of the quote.
>
> Title: Drum-beat of the nation
> Author: Charles Carleton Coffin
> Year: 1888
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Xog-AAAAYAAJ&q=%22so+terrible%22#v=snippet&
> [Begin excerpt]
> General Lee beholds the slaughter from Marye's house.
>  "It is well that this is so terrible; we should grow too fond of it
> if it were not," he said to one of his officers.
> [End excerpt]
>
> Garson
>
> On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Garson O'Toole
> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: famous quote syntactically mangled, nobody notices
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > The elaborated version in which Lee pronounces the quotation to
> > Longstreet was being propagated by 1907. I will search a bit more for
> > an earlier instance and then post when I can.
> >
> > Clarification: I am searching for these instances of the quotation and
> > sharing them to help others. I do not know enough currently to take a
> > stance on historical reality of the quotation. I defer to JL's
> > knowledgeable judgment.
> >
> > Garson
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
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> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: famous quote syntactically mangled, nobody notices
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yes. I've actually *read* _Surry of Eagle's Nest_ (well, much of it),
> and
> >> the footnote is undoubtedly a guarantee of the sentiment's authenticity.
> >>
> >> It would be pedantically satisfying, however, to know just how Cooke
> >> learned of it.
> >>
> >> It is now frequenly said that he made the remark to Gen. James
> >> B. Longstreet, but JBL seems not to be mentioned in connection with the
> >> remark till 1931 (GB). Furthermore, Cooke asserts that Lee "murmured"
> the
> >> words to no one in particular.
> >>
> >> My thoroughly gratuitous SWAG is that Cooke heard the anecdote from one
> of
> >> Lee's other officers, or conceivably was told by Lee himself that
> >> he'd thought something like that.  What better way to immortalize the
> idea
> >> than to make it pithy and claim it had actually been "murmured"?  That
> >> would be much simpler and more inspiring than to write, "I was later
> told
> >> that General Lee had offered his opinion that...," or "General Lee later
> >> told me that he'd been thinking that...."
> >>
> >> JL
> >> On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Garson O'Toole
> >> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>> Poster:       Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> >>> Subject:      Re: famous quote syntactically mangled, nobody notices
> >>>
> >>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Cooke was himself the "early biographer" (1871) referred to.
>  _Surry_ is
> >>> > fiction.
> >>> >
> >>> > Cooke, a successful novelist, was an officer on Jeb Stuart's staff. I
> >>> > haven't found any information as to Cooke's whereabouts at the
> battle of
> >>> > Fredericksburg. I suspect that he heard the comment at second hand
> >>> > and tweaked it into memorable form.
> >>> >
> >>> > Only to be untweaked by the Internet.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for your response, JL. Yes, both YBQ and QV list the 1871
> >>> biography by John Esten Cooke. Below is a link to the biography. The
> >>> 1866 and 1871 versions of the saying are slightly different. The word
> >>> "would" in 1866 is replaced by "should" in 1871. The asterisk note may
> >>> have indicated that Cooke was asserting the quote was genuine in the
> >>> 1866 work. There is another early cite given below from Cooke.
> >>>
> >>> Cite: 1871, A Life of Gen. Robert E. Lee by John Esten Cooke
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=cTEOAAAAIAAJ&q=%22so+terrible%22#v=snippet&
> >>>
> >>> [Begin excerpt]
> >>> They had returned as rapidly as they had charged, pursued by shot and
> >>> shell, and General Lee, witnessing the spectacle from his hill,
> >>> murmured, in his grave and measured voice: "It is well this is so
> >>> terrible! we should grow too fond of it!"
> >>> [End excerpt]
> >>>
> >>> John Esten Cooke also included a version of the quote in an 1870 book.
> >>>
> >>> Cite: 1870, Hammer and Rapier by John Esten Cooke
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=1zYrAAAAYAAJ&q=%22so+terrible%22#v=snippet&
> >>>
> >>> [Begin excerpt]
> >>> As Gen. Meade's lines were now seen flying, pursued by Jackson's men,
> >>> Lee gazed at them in silence; then, in that deep voice, which never
> >>> lost its grave and measured accent, he murmured:
> >>> "It is well this is so terrible; we would grow too fond of it!"
> >>> [End excerpt]
> >>>
> >>> 1866: It is well this is so terrible-we would grow too fond of it!
> >>> 1870: It is well this is so terrible; we would grow too fond of it!
> >>> 1871: It is well this is so terrible! we should grow too fond of it!
> >>>
> >>> Please check for typos and OCR errors before using any of this
> >>> information. Thanks,
> >>> Garson
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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