dodge Pompey
Dan Goncharoff
thegonch at GMAIL.COM
Mon Jul 2 18:02:00 UTC 2012
I see only one clear reference to lanterns, and that refers to lanterns
that don't work, so they dodge Pompey,
Who would be trying to dodge the lights of Portsmouth? An impressed sailor
trying to escape by sea?
DanG
On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
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> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> While we're supposing, I still prefer something to do with signaling
> lanterns at Portsmouth port.
> Joel
>
> At 7/2/2012 01:19 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> >There may be two distinct connections.
> >
> >Several of the cites use "dodging Pompey" in the context of avoiding
> >something coming from enemy boats -- cannon balls? A form of Greek fire?
> >The French tended to fire high, so their cannon fire would look more like
> >the rocks propelled by a volcano. (The Dutch, and the English themselves,
> >fired low, into the body of the ships.) Could dodging Pompey originally
> >mean dodging enemy cannon balls fired high?
> >
> >"Dodging Pompey" in the context of work might then be a later development,
> >influenced by the earlier phrase, or the French prison ship, or the
> >nickname for Portsmouth, or all of the above.
> >
> >And then there's Measure for Measure...
> >
> >DanG
> >
> >
> >On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> >
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> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yes, but my question is really about the connection of "dodging" with
> > > "Pompey."
> > >
> > > Joel
> > >
> > > At 7/2/2012 10:03 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > > >I know nine reasons:
> > > >
> > > >http://www.welcometoportsmouth.co.uk/pompey.html
> > > >
> > > >7 is my favorite, followed by 8. 8, however, makes more sense for
> "dodging
> > > >Pompey".
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Ships entering Portsmouth harbour make an entry in the ships log
> > > *Pom.
> > > > P.* as a reference to *Portsmouth Point* (this being too long).
> > > > Navigational charts also use this abbreviation.
> > > >
> > > > - *La Pompee* was a captured French ship moored in Portsmouth
> harbour
> > > > and used for prison accommodation, (captured 1793 and broken up
> 1817).
> > > > There is a Yorkshire term pompey for prison or house of
> correction.
> > > >
> > > >DanG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > At 6/29/2012 05:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote:
> > > > > >Couldn't the reference to the lantern "playing 'dodge Pompey'"
> simply
> > > be a
> > > > > >way of saying the lantern wouldn't work when needed?
> > > > >
> > > > > I suppose so, but aren't we still at a loss as to why "Pompey" and
> > > > > whether there is a relationship to Portsmouth?
> > > > >
> > > > > Joel
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >Several of the references do seem to imply avoiding danger
> instead of
> > > > > work,
> > > > > >and they are older.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >DanG
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >
> > > > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: dodge Pompey
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So a sense related to ships signaling precedes "avoiding work"?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Portsmouth was certainly a significant British naval base (and
> > > > > > > commercial ship port) in the 18th and 19th centuries. Finding
> the
> > > > > > > passage in would be important. A lantern had a shutter
> (perhaps
> > > also
> > > > > > > called a "screen"?; see 1838 quote below). Would they be
> "dodged",
> > > > > > > moved to reveal or shut off the beam, in order to signal? Did
> > > "dodge
> > > > > > > Pompey" mean something like "avoid Portsmouth", for some
> reason or
> > > > > > > purpose, by manipulating a lantern? ("dodge" sense 1 -- "a. To
> > > move
> > > > > > > to and fro, or backwards and forwards ..." [of a person],
> 1704-;
> > > and
> > > > > > > sense 6, "To move (a thing) to and fro, or up and down ...",
> 1820-,
> > > > > > > close to the earliest "dodge Pompey" quotations below.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Joel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At 6/27/2012 07:46 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote:
> > > > > > > >I was attempting again to find how Portsmouth, England got the
> > > > > > > >nickname Pompey (OED has it from 1899), and so far, failed
> again.
> > > > > > > >There are many proposals. Anyway, here are some antedatings
> (OED
> > > has
> > > > > > > >1929) for dodging Pompey (one of which, merely coincidentally,
> > > > > > > >involves the US ship Portsmouth); dodging Pompey may have
> played
> > > > > > > >some role in the Portsmouth nickname origin--or not. (Green's,
> > > > > > > >unchecked.) They may not all fit OED's dodge v 13 sense (a) to
> > > evade
> > > > > > > >work (Naval slang).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >1836 Ben Brace; the last of Nelson's Agamemnons. Capt.
> Chamier
> > > RN.
> > > > > > > >v. 1 p. 295 (HT)
> > > > > > > >[in rough seas] We tried a signal or two, but it was no
> use--the
> > > > > > > >lanterns were playing 'dodge Pompey,' and the lights were out
> > > before
> > > > > > > >the signal could be made.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >1838 [1853 ed.] Jack Adams, the mutineer. Capt. F. Chamier,
> RN.
> > > p.145
> > > > > > > col. 1
> > > > > > > >Have I ever played dodge Pompey behind a screen when danger
> was
> > > near?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >1841 Tom Bowling: A tale of the sea. v.3 (HT)
> > > > > > > >Smith was a regular dodge Pompey
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >1845-1847, published 1958. The Cruise of the Portsmouth,
> > > 1845-1847:
> > > > > > > >A Sailor's View of the Naval Conquest of California. Joseph T.
> > > > > > > >Downey, USN; ed. Howard Lamar. Yale UP. (paper)
> > > > > > > >I have found out that dodging Pompey is a good thing, dodging
> is
> > > my
> > > > > > > >trade, and I am as good a dodger as any he [sic] in
> California,
> > > just
> > > > > > > >keep your eyes on their Big Guns, and when you see the flash,
> fall
> > > > > > > >down where you stand, and don't rose again till you hear the
> Ball
> > > > > > > >whistle over your heads;....
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >1847 Cruise of the Graceful; or, The Robbers of Carracas, by
> > > Captain
> > > > > > > >Barnacle, U.S.N. (C.M. Newell?) p. 5, col. 1 (HT)
> > > > > > > >....I never seed so much _dodging pompey_ in all my sailoring
> as I
> > > > > > > >have these two weeks past.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >1880 Captain Tom Drake; or, England's hearts of oak. W. L.
> Emmett.
> > > > > > > >p. 7 col. 1
> > > > > > > >"I've put a question to you, now I wants the answer; now
> then, out
> > > > > > > >with it, none of your tack and half tack, and dodging Pompey
> round
> > > > > > > >the long boat, let's have it...."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >1899 The log of a sea-waif... Frank T. Bullen, p.292 (GB)
> > > > > > > >They killed time in a variety of ways, making believe to do
> some
> > > > > > > >work, but principally occupied in "dodging Pompey."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Stephen Goranson
> > > > > > > >www.duke.edu/~goranson <http://www.duke.edu/%7Egoranson>
> > > > > > > >
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