Past Subjunctive

[Laurence Horn]

On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:35 PM, Hunter, Lynne R CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-PACIFIC, 71700 wrote:

> The title of the book apparently sprang from the author's unawareness
> that the Buddha had "dated," and therefore seems to have been _meant_ as
> a contrary-to-fact. To me, the title _If the Buddha Dated_ suggests a
> present, rather than a past, contrary-to-fact, implying the Buddha's
> existence in the present day, which I don't think was the author's
> intent.  (_If Jesus Dated_ would have been less jarring to me, whether
> or not Jesus actually dated, because it could be argued--at least by
> some--that Jesus, unlike Buddha, is still around.)
>
>

Or these could both be indicative if we (or the author) simply doesn't know whether or not Jesus, the Buddha, or whoever dated.  That doesn't imply either is still around; "(What) if Moses didn't actually stutter" could be uttered/speculated if I simply want to consider the possibility that the reports of his stuttering were, say, politically motivated.  Compare also "(What) if Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare", which might be uttered by an Oxonian, vs. "(What) if Shakespeare hadn't written Shakespeare", as uttered by a counterfactual historian.  Or, if you prefer, "If Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy", by a conspiracy-minded Oliver Sands type vs. "If Oswald hadn't shot Kennedy" by the same or another counterfactual historian of Warrenite persuasion (e.g. Stephen King in explaining his motives for writing _11/22/63_. Whether or not JFK and Oswald are still around isn't crucial; it's (lack of) counterfactual presupposition that matters.

LH
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
> Of W Brewer
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 7:31 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Past Subjunctive
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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>              American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       W Brewer <brewerwa at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Past Subjunctive
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>
> "what if the Buddha would have dated"
> He married his sixteen-year-old cousin, Yasodhara, and had a kid. As the
> prince of Kapilavastu for 29 years, he probably had a few broads on the
> side, too. I don't get the contrary-to-fact implication here.
>
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