required plural marking in 2PP

[Michael Newman]

I think that your choice may come from the fact that you are interested in and reflect on language far more than most people. Anyone on this list is going to be an extreme outlier in this respect. That means you analyze what you are saying and respond accordingly far more than most people do. So your common sense is applied only after a morphological analysis that most people do not perform. 

Unless we have empirical evidence (such as exists for man and he) that you guys is associated with male reference, we don't know how non- metalinguistic outliers process these forms. My hypothesis going into these questions would be that "you guys" has little or no gender bias, but that policeman and businessman do. I would think freshman has less to none too. One reason is the bias in the history of the identities being referred to and the other is the phonological reduction of the "man" morpheme in "freshman." The fact that this has been removed from its etymological roots can be seen in the common plural, freshmans. That does not prevent some poeple from insisting on "firstyears," but that is because they do the same kind of morphological analysis not one based on empirical evidence. 




Michael Newman
Associate Professor of Linguistics
Queens College/CUNY
michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu



On Jul 9, 2012, at 8:01 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: required plural marking in 2PP
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I'm one person. I know I'm more conscious of the form when women are around.
> 
> I use "guys" when women are present, but a flag goes up in my mind and I perform a quick calculation of the situation (at least some of the time). I wouldn't knowingly use "you guys" when women my mother's age and older are included. Isn't that common sense?
> 
> Surely the same thing applies to "businessperson" and "salesperson." Aren't women more likely to be addressed that way than men?
> 
> Benjamin Barrett
> Seattle, WA
> 
> On Jul 8, 2012, at 10:49 PM, Michael Newman wrote:
> 
>> I got told off once too by an art education professor who sniffed that =
>> feminists care about such things. Later on by coincidence I heard she =
>> got told off by other people in recounting the story.=20
>> 
>> 
>> it's ultimately an empircal question whether there's a semantic bias =
>> towards males in this form of address. Since no one has done the =
>> necessary research, we can't say for sure. But I sure don't see it. It =
>> sure doesn't feel intuitively at all the same as generic man or epicene =
>> he.=20
>> 
>> 
>> Michael Newman
>> Associate Professor of Linguistics
>> Queens College/CUNY
>> michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 8, 2012, at 10:57 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>> 
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>>> Subject:      Re: required plural marking in 2PP
>>> =
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> -----
>>> =20
>>> At 7/8/2012 04:44 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>>>> It would surprise me if "you all" isn't used more frequently than
>>>> "you guys" when women are present. That's the hint.
>>> =20
>>> I've used "you guys" in addressing two or more women of my
>>> acquaintance, and been called out by the more senior of them.  On the
>>> other hand, my unresearched impression is that it is not uncommon for
>>> women.  Or perhaps "among women" -- that is, like other epithets it
>>> is OK for the in-group but not for outsiders.
>>> =20
>>> (Boston area.)
>>> =20
>>> Joel
>>> =20
> 
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