"Monday"

[Laurence Horn]

On Jul 30, 2012, at 5:20 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:

> Where is the allophone in the room? For me "Rosa's roses" would be ~~Roezuz roeziz~~.  Two phonemes.  No allophone.

I agree with the last claim; I never said they were allophones for me, or for anyone else.  I said they were identical.  WB characterized the raising of [@] to barred-i in "Leominster" as allophonic (conditioned by the /n/), but that wouldn't apply to "Rosa's" and "roses", since there's no difference in conditioning factors.  I'm aware that others (not just Gleason) claim to distinguish "Rosa's" and "roses", I just can't hear it myself (when they're both unstressed in the final syllable, as is usually the case).  No doubt a genetic flaw.

LH

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>> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 22:13:33 -0400
>> From: Berson at ATT.NET
>> Subject: Re: "Monday"
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> Subject:      Re: "Monday"
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> At 7/29/2012 11:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>> On Jul 29, 2012, at 10:54 AM, W Brewer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Laurence Horn wrote: <<< I'd have used a barred-i if I knew the ascii for
>>>> it, but for me, unstressed barred-i and unstressed schwa are
>>>> basically indistinguishable.>>>
>>>> WB: Barred-eye should be an allophone of schwa before [n].
>>> Alveolar raising.
>>>>
>>> But in other environments they supposedly contrast.  In Gleason's
>>> old _Intro to Descriptive Linguistics_ that I was weaned on in the
>>> early 60s, there was a purported minimal pair, "Rosa's" (with schwa)
>>> vs. "roses" (with barred-i).  They always sounded like homophones to
>>> me, probably because they're both totally unstressed, although I
>>> certainly contrast them in the Bolinger way:  "No, I said "ros-uhz",
>>> not "rose-izz".  (Or George-uhz vs. Georg-izz, for "Georgia's" vs.
>>> "George's", which did come up when I was hanging out with both G.
>>> Lakoff and G. Green; if you cited a sentence from "Georg{e/ia}'s
>>> paper", I'd have had to ask whether you meant Georgia or
>>> George.)  For me, these are just spelling pronunciations.
>>
>> If I knew what allophone was, I'd probably disagree.  :-)  Yes, no,
>> they're two phonemes for me.  I distinguish "Rosa's"and "roses", and
>> "Georgia's" and George's" -- and I swear the former was a minimal
>> pair in a linguistics course I took centuries ago, and was called
>> "Descriptive Linguistics", and probably used the same book that Larry
>> cites, and nyah! nyah! was at Harvard,* I distinguish "minster" and
>> "Munster".  Or are the vowels there both stressed, and everyone distinguishes?
>>
>> * But then, I've been accused heretofore of being pretentious.
>>
>> Joel
>>
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