More euphemisms: "pervasive language"
Shapiro, Fred
fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU
Sat Mar 17 19:51:03 UTC 2012
I don't want to get into a protracted argument with George, of whom I am still jealous because he found the earliest use of "jazz" after I had searched the Los Angeles Times and failed to find the "jazz curve" usage. But I just want to point out that the Dictionary of American English was not limited to Americanisms.
Fred Shapiro
________________________________________
From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of George Thompson [george.thompson at nyu.edu]
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 12:29 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Fwd: More euphemisms: "pervasive language"
FS: "The OED probably has much more information about American English than
the Dictionary of American English and the Dictionary of Americanisms put
together."
And well it might, since both the others were published 60+ years ago, and
were limited to Americanisms, excluding borrowings from British English.
In this instance ("language" = "bad language"), the OED failed to give
information evidently to be found in Meriam Webster's 3rd. The revision of
the OED began with "M", but this entry has been at least tinkered with
lately, with citations from the 1970s & 1990s. The OED's entry mislead AW
to state that "what seems to be new here is "language" used this way in
American English. here's the OED3 (March 2000) subentry: ***",
I acknowledge that when I say the OED shows no interest in documenting the
spread of English to the colonies, that is my intemperate way of saying
"inadequate interest". And on that position I hold my ground. The Curse
of the Thompsons will be lifted from OUP when I see in every entry and
subentry a citation of the earliest appearance in American English. Until
then, let them tremble.
GAT
On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at yale.edu>wrote:
> I've said this before, I believe in response to other postings by George,
> that he is way off base in his sweeping statements about the treatment of
> American English in the OED. The OED probably has much more information
> about American English than the Dictionary of American English and the
> Dictionary of Americanisms put together.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of
> George Thompson [george.thompson at nyu.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:31 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: More euphemisms: "pervasive language"
>
> It's too bad that the OED is unconcerned to document American English. If
> a word or meaning is first found over here, then, o. k. But if it
> originated in England, then the OED won't bother to show how quickly or
> slowly it migrated to the U. S.
> Neither does it concern itself with English among any of the other
> colonials, ungrateful wretches that they are. But probably there are more
> English speakers here than in the rest of the colonies put together, and
> there will be more subscriptions to the OED taken here. The spread of
> words and phrases documents the spread of ideas, culture, social practices,
> and it would be well if the OED were to provide the evidence that's in its
> files.
> For my own interests, I have Jonathon Green's dictionary of slang. But,
> wait! That reminds me of another reason why the Curse of the Thompsons is
> falling upon Oxford University Press. Where is volume 3 of HDAS? Let them
> beware. The Curse of the Thompsons may not be felt at once, but when it
> strikes it is devastating.
>
> GAT
>
> On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Douglas G. Wilson <douglas at nb.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On 3/17/2012 9:47 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU**>
> >> Poster: Arnold Zwicky<zwicky at STANFORD.EDU>
> >> Subject: Re: More euphemisms: "pervasive language"
> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> >> -------------------
> >>
> >> On Mar 17, 2012, at 6:25 AM, Jon Lighter wrote:
> >>
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society<ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU**>
> >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter<wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM**>
> >>> Subject: Re: More euphemisms: "pervasive language"
> >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> >>> -------------------
> >>>
> >>> Clearly in these cases, which I've been noticing for several years,
> >>> "language" means "offensive language" precisely as Neal says.
> >>>
> >>> I've even heard news stories where somebody was accused of using,
> without
> >>> further elaboration in the *immediate* context, "some language."
> >>>
> >> what seems to be new here is "language" used this way in American
> >> English. here's the OED3 (March 2000) subentry:
> >>
> >> colloq. = bad language at sense 2a. Also int., indicating that the
> >> speaker should desist from using such language.
> >>
> >> 1860 Dickens Uncommerc. Traveller in All Year Round 10 Mar. 464/1
> Mr.
> >> Victualler's assurance that he ‘never allowed any language, and never
> >> suffered any disturbance’.
> >> 1865 Dickens Dr. Marigold i, in All Year Round Extra Christmas No., 7
> >> Dec. 4/1 But have a temper in the cart, flinging language and the
> hardest
> >> goods in stock at you, and where are you then?
> >> 1886 W. Besant Children of Gibeon I. ii. ii. 263 The evening is the
> >> liveliest time of the day for Ivy Lane..the street is fullest, the
> voices
> >> loudest, the children most shrill, the women most loquacious, and the
> >> ‘language’ most pronounced.
> >> 1893 F. C. Selous Trav. S.-E. Afr. 3 The sailor..had never ceased to
> >> pour out a continuous flood of ‘language’ all the time.
> >> 1929 C. C. Martindale Risen Sun 173, I have heard more ‘language’ in
> >> a ‘gentleman's’ club in ten minutes than in all that evening in the
> >> Melbourne Stadium.
> >> 1974 ‘M. Innes’ Mysterious Comm. vii. 75 ‘You behave like bloody
> >> fools.’ ‘Language, now, Mr Honeybath, language.’
> >> 1995 J. M. Sims-Kimbrey Wodds& Doggerybaw 172/2 'E's allus usin'
> >> langwidge, 'e is. A weeannt let them kids near 'im.
> >>
> >> …..
> >>
> >> (note the quotation marks in some cases.) all of the citations are
> >> British, as is the interjectional use of "language".
> >>
> > --
> >
> > Even the US use may not be so new. MW3, "languiage", sense 4c: ":
> > abusive epithets : PROFANITY" ... with example by Ring Lardner (from
> > "Horseshoes", 1916 [I think]) "shouldn't of blamed the fellers if they'd
> > cut loose with some language".
> >
> > -- Doug Wilson
> >
> > ------------------------------**------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
--
George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then.
--
George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then.
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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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