Welsh is not as distant as Basque, Maltese, or Apache

Wed Mar 21 00:52:33 UTC 2012

Thanks, B. Barrett and W. Brewer.

--
Kate Svoboda-Spanbock

(t) 310-880-3091
(f) 310-915-9807
spanbocks at verizon.net

On Mar 20, 2012, at 11:33 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Welsh is not as distant as Basque, Maltese, or Apache
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> That's a good catch. I looked in Crystal's "Cambridge Encyclopedia of =
> Language," and orthography refers to the choice of alphabet.
> 
> I've sometimes wondered about the use of "spelling" for languages not =
> using the Latin alphabet, though.
> 
> Wikipedia says about spelling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling): =
> "the writing of one or more words with letters and diacritics. In =
> addition, the term often, but not always, means an accepted standard =
> spelling or the process of naming the letters."
> 
> And orthography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthography): The =
> orthography of a language specifies a standardized way of using a =
> specific writing system (script) to write the language.
> 
> These articles seem to show the terms are identical for those languages:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_orthography
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_orthography
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_spelling
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_spelling
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_orthography separates spelling from =
> punctuation. The reason seems to be because of the way terms are defined =
> in Russian, but would you call comma use spelling? Probably punctuation =
> is a part of orthography.
> 
> I think the use of letters in abugidas would also fall under spelling =
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abugida).
> 
> How about when you need to select from more than one script? That seems =
> to fit more into "species a standardized way of using a specific writing =
> system." Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_writing_system) =
> has five scripts, including the Latin alphabet and Arabic numerals, and =
> Korean has three: hangul, Chinese characters and the Latin alphabet. =
> Saying you use the hiragana "ha" to represent the postposition "wa" =
> seems like a spelling issue, but whether you use hiragana, katakana or =
> kanji to write words for animals seems more like an orthographic choice.
> 
> How about selecting Chinese characters? "That word is _spelled_ with the =
> Chinese character for 'flower' not 'tree'" seems odd to me even though =
> it's a matter of which writing symbol is used. Or the use of =
> determinatives =
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyphs#Determinatives) in =
> Egyptian that had no pronunciation? Orthography?
> 
> Benjamin Barrett
> Seattle, WA
> 
> On Mar 19, 2012, at 11:35 PM, Kate wrote:
> 
>> =20
>> What is the difference between orthography and spelling? I thought =
> they were the same thing.
>> =20
>> --
>> Kate Svoboda-Spanbock
>> (sent from my iPhone; please excuse typos)
>> 310-880-3091
>> =20
>> On Mar 19, 2012, at 11:11 PM, W Brewer <brewerwa at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> =20
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> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       W Brewer <brewerwa at GMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: Welsh is not as distant as Basque, Maltese, or =
> Apache
>>> =
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>>> =20
>>> RE: Interlingual distance.  Eric Nielsen wrote:  <<<How does one =
> measures
>>> how distant one language is from another?>>>
>>> =20
>>> WB:  For us amateurs, a handy scale might be that of CV James, shown =
> in a
>>> box in Crystal?s Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language, p.371 in the =
> first
>>> 1987 edition (yeah, all my stuff is old). Basically, James has 5 =
> criteria
>>> for an informal estimate of the structural distance between E=3DEnglish=
> and
>>> five European languages (F=3DFrench, G=3DGerman, I=3DItalian, =
> R=3DRussian,
>>> S=3DSpanish).  The diagram is like a five-pointed star, each arm =
> segmented
>>> from 1 (least distance from English) to 5 (greatest distance). The =
> arms are
>>> labeled Pronunciation, Grammar, Vocabulary, Orthography, and =
> Spelling.
>>> According to this scheme, Italian comes closest to English (of the =
> five
>>> Indo-European languages), with a score of 6: Pron=3D1 (easiest to =
> pronounce)
>>> + Gram=3D2(French, Spanish, Italian grammar would be about equally =
> familiar
>>> to Anglophones) + Vocab=3D1(same score as French & Spanish) + =
> Orthog=3D1(same
>>> as Fr, Sp, German) + Spel=3D1(same as Spanish). The other languages =
> score for
>>> interlingual distance as follows:  Spanish 7 (2+2+1+1+1), German 10
>>> (2+3+2+1+2), French 12 (4+1+1+1+4+), Russian 15 (3+3+4+4+2). So, how =
> would
>>> I evaluate Welsh, based upon my one quarter of Medieval Welsh? =
> Pron=3D1,
>>> Gram=3D15, Vocab=3D14, Orthog=3D1, Spel=3D1; for a score of 32. I =
> guess we have to
>>> adjust the values upwards for less familiar languages; familiar to =
> EGO in
>>> the middle of the star, who happens to be ME.  Chinese (Mandarin): =
> Pron=3D5
>>> (1/segments, 10/tones) + Gram=3D50 + Vocab=3D100 + Orthog=3D1,000 + =
> Spel=3D1,500 =3D
>>> 2,651.
>>> =20
>>> Keep in mind these are subjective, egocentric evaluations. If we had =
> a
>>> larger-scale survey, it might mean something. Plus the more language
>>> criteria considered, the more meaningful (whatever that means).
>>> =20
> 
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