permatorium

[Victor Steinbok]

My goal was not to undercut Barry Popik or his desire to cover
everything, but to bring the particulars to the attention of this list.
Yes, Barry noticed it long before anyone else did (except for the people
who were actually using it or considering using it later, which is why
the word is still in the news). If BarryP wants some kind of credit for
this, he can have it. For me, this was obviously a hit-and-run post, not
subject to extensive research.

Kibbeh is a different matter. Yes, it's been covered, to some extent,
here--but that was in 2001, with a couple of antedating citations from
BarryP in 2002. The next person to bring it up on 14 December 2008
was... I (the Finnish meatballs thread). At that point, I was going in
the opposite direction--I was comparing Dutch raw-meat paste sold under
several different names (steak tarta(a)r(e),  filet americain(e) ) in a
variety of formulations to the raw version of kibbeh. AFAICT there was
no attempt to add to or correct any dictionary definitions. The subject,
however, was similar--Swedish/Finnish meatballs, Green/Turkish coffee,
French fries, etc.

Several things have changed, however. Kibbeh /is/ now in the
OED--Barry's initial post suggested that it wasn't, as did his follow-up
in 2002--perhaps it was added later (or he just missed it?). There was a
follow up post from Rudolph Troike that clearly stated MW 10th
Collegiate defined kibbeh as "A Near Eastern dish of ground lamb and
bulgur that may be eaten cooked or raw." OED lacks the specificity of
lamb and does not include the raw version: "In Middle Eastern (esp.
Lebanese and Syrian) cookery: a mixture of meat, bulgar or rice, onion,
and seasonings, ground together and typically served in the form of
croquettes stuffed with a filling." Since Barry did not find the OED
definition in 2001, he could not have been critical of it. Since I did
not post any antedatings of any spelling of kibbeh, I was obviously not
disputing or challenging any of Barry's findings, and since the OED and
other dictionaries clearly still don't have the correct definition,
there is still reason to bring the subject to their attention.

In fact, I have a few more details. "Kofta" is also used in Lebanon, but
as "Kofta kebab", similar to the way it appears in Pakistan. The
Moroccan version has been reported in a couple of sources as "kefte
keb(b)ab". I'll have more to say on kebabs, kofta, chole, chelo and a
few other related subjects in the near future--unless Barry wants to put
up his own research on the subject first. I'll be sure to clear it with him.

I have great respect for Barry Popik's work (except for his political
convictions, but that's another matter--we can disagree on politics
without this having an effect on other areas of interaction... well, I
can and I hope he can). But he's not the only one who spends hours
reading "exotic books".

     VS-)

On 5/13/2012 1:40 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote:
> Checking Barry Popik's website is often a good idea:
>
> Entry from February 26, 2011
> Permitorium or Permatorium (permit + moratorium)
>
> http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/permitorium_permit_moratorium/
>
> Barry Popik said:
>> Also, "kibbeh" and "Turkish pizza" and such are in the ADS-L
>> archives. Tons of stuff from hours at the NYPL reading every
>> exotic book I could find.

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