"the finger" in 1932 Hollywood epic

[Jonathan Lighter]

A quick search of GB finds not a single ex. of either relevant sense of
"gave [him]/ get/ got the finger" before 1961.

Am I missing something?

BTW, the 1932 ex. is unequivocal both in appearance and context. It could
be argued that the gesture in the 1886 photo is not what it seems, but
given the exposure time of cameras in the 1880s (not that I know precisely
what that was) it may be that Radbourn had to hold his pose for several
seconds. The image isn't blurred as I would expect it to be if his hand had
innocently been in motion while the shutter was open.

Whose shoulder is his other hand resting on?  Was there some animosity
there?

JL

On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "the finger" in 1932 Hollywood epic
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks, John. The picture slipped my mind as I wrote.
>
> In any case, I didn't discover it until after HDAS 1 was published in 1994.
> IIRC, it first appeared in the book accompanying Ken Burns's _Baseball_ TV
> series.
>
> BTW, "flipping the bird" is obviously more descriptive of the gesture than
> is the earlier "giving the bird."
>
> JL
>
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Baker, John <JBAKER at stradley.com> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       "Baker, John" <JBAKER at STRADLEY.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: "the finger" in 1932 Hollywood epic
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > The Wikipedia article on Finger (gesture) includes a picture of what it
> > says is a baseball pitcher giving the finger to the camera in a team
> > picture in 1886.  It's kind of hard to see the detail in the version of
> the
> > picture on Wikipedia, but it does look like that might be what he's
> doing.
> >  That would probably be the earliest photographic evidence of flipping
> the
> > bird.
> >
> >
> > John Baker
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
> > Of Jonathan Lighter
> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 7:29 AM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: "the finger" in 1932 Hollywood epic
> >
> > Not exactly an antedating, though the evidence in HDAS is a little
> > confusing. Put simply, the fig. sense "treat maliciously" is attested (in
> > Funk & Wagnalls!) in 1890-93, but the literal sense, in ref. to an
> gesture
> > is not clearly found till 1961.
> >
> > (Maybe Jon Green lists an earlier literal ex.)
> >
> > It is claimed that the gesture comes to us straight from Roman times, but
> > the lexical evidence says otherwise.  My wild guess is that it was
> > introduced into Anglo-American culture by Italian immigrants in the 19th
> C.
> >  (The point of origin of the British "two-finger" gesture remains a
> > mystery, and even now it is little known in the U.S.)
> >
> > Didn't we discuss "giving the bird" long ago?
> >
> > Originally (19th C. England) it seems to have meant hissing or deriding
> an
> > actor on stage. Later, anybody.  The innocuous sense is frequent in the
> > 1940s.  At some point, perhaps ca1950, the phrase came to designate
> giving
> > "the finger."  (HDAS exx. begin in 1966).
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 10:08 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > Subject:      Re: "the finger" in 1932 Hollywood epic
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > The question is -- is this an antedating?
> > >
> > > Joel
> > >
> > > At 5/13/2012 07:13 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > > >About three-fourths of the way through _The Lost Squadron_ (1932; dir.
> > > >George Archainbaud), Robert Armstrong (later of _King Kong_) clearly
> and
> > > >vigorously gives Richard Dix the finger from the cockpit of a biplane
> > > which
> > > >has just been sabotaged by Erich von Stroheim.
> > > >
> > > >Naturally I thought I was crazy, but with the help of the olde DVR I
> > > >verified the gesture plus my sanity.  A reviewer at IMDb caught it as
> > > well,
> > > >even though he calls the gesture "the bird":
> > > >
> > > >http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0023151/reviews
> > > >
> > > >I've never seen it elsewhere in a movie before ca1970.
> > > >
> > > >Otherwise the film wasn't real swell. Two stars.
> > > >
> > > >JL
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > > truth."
> >
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> >
>
>
>
> --
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