"political"

Tue May 15 20:39:15 UTC 2012

We're on the same page, Joel, but the author (David D. Perlmutter, _Visions
of War_, p. 14) is not condemning hidden agendas, "false consciousness," or
the like. Believe it or not, he seems to be making a straightforward
statement that any educated reader should be able to understand. It appears
to be nonjudgmental: the "political" element in this cross-cultural naming
is misleading but not sinister. Instead it appears to be unconscious and
hard to avoid. (To that extent I have to agree with him.)

Maybe it's just a poor choice of words. Maybe "ideological" would be closer
to what he means, but that doesn't quite work for me either. "Misleadingly
ethnocentric" might work.  "Act" does have a tendentious sound, however.

But in any case, a Ph.D. believed in 1998 that the words "politics/
political" include any form of cross-cultural interpretation.

JL

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:

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> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "political"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I am lead to recall the "Meaningless Words" section of Orwell's "Politics
> and the English Language":
>
> "Words like romantic, plastic, values, human, dead, sentimental, natural,
> vitality, as used in art criticism, are strictly meaningless, in the sense
> that they not only do not point to any discoverable object, but are hardly
> ever expected to do so by the reader."
>
> DanG
>
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > Subject:      Re: "political"
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I'm with you, Jon, in "interrogating" "political".  For those who
> > believe all writing has its agenda, then another writer's calling
> > something anything is a "political" act.  And their agenda can
> > appropriate "political" to mean "with an agenda.
> >
> > (Probably can be said better.)
> >
> > Joel
> >
> > At 5/15/2012 01:45 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > > >Isn't the justification of a specific public policy a political act?
> > >
> > >Yeah, but that isn't the issue here.
> > >
> > >The author is simply discussing the question of whether war existed in
> the
> > >Ice Age. He's saying that whatever they may have been doing to each
> other
> > >with those spears, it is "a political act" to call it war.
> > >
> > >Because the Ice Agers, for all we know, might have thought of mass
> > stabbing
> > >and bopping as recreation or a neutral activity undifferentiated from
> > peace
> > >or a smart way to honor their gods (oops! political! maybe they didn't
> > have
> > >"gods"!).
> > >
> > >So "politics" and "policy" as we know them are not involved.
> > >
> > >JL
> > >
> > >On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > Subject:      Re: "political"
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Isn't the justification of a specific public policy a political act?
> > The
> > > > author was arguing that using " the activities of the hunters of the
> > Ice
> > > > Age" as justification for war is political.
> > > >
> > > > DanG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > > > <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > Subject:      "political"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Gee, I'm dense. After decades of exposure to Marxist,
> > deconstructionist,
> > > > > structuralist, poststructuralist, and metastructuralist criticism,
> I
> > > > still
> > > > > don't know what "political" means!  Can you beat it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Can someone interpret the meaning for me in the following
> sentence? I
> > > > mean
> > > > > fairly authoritatively:
> > > > >
> > > > > "To use words from one culture to describe the activities of
> another
> > is
> > > > > always a political act. It is an ethnocentric value judgment to
> > impose
> > > > the
> > > > > term 'war'  to describe the activities of the hunters of the Ice
> > Age. The
> > > > > peoples of that time probably had no word for war and would be
> > amazed at
> > > > > the concept."
> > > > >
> > > > > 'Self-serving'? 'Ethnocentrically self-serving'?  'Unjustifiable
> > from a
> > > > > perspective of cultural relativism'?  'Etc.'?
> > > > >
> > > > > There seems to be an underlying nuance of "politics" present that
> > isn't
> > > > > covered by OED either. But what exactly?
> > > > >
> > > > > Should we care?
> > > > >
> > > > > JL
> > > > >
> > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > > > truth."
> > > > >
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