"There's an old saying..."
Dan Goncharoff
thegonch at GMAIL.COM
Tue Sep 4 22:09:54 UTC 2012
On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> In that case, I'll go further. Honore' was applying his Murphy-style "old
> saying" not to military planning but to civic plans for dealing with
> Hurricane Isaac. The form of its expression (i.e., its words and
> tone) makes it far more broadly applicable than Moltke's
> observation specifying "contact with the enemy."
>
Why does it matter that the context for the saying has changed?
>
> I suspect that if Honore' had run his "saying" past Moltke as an acceptable
> paraphrase of the German's pronouncement (which Clausewitz had alluded to
> far earlier as the "friction" of battle, which begins to erode plans
> immediately), Moltke would have cocked an eybrow and said:
>
> "You are a ferry egzentrik fellow."
>
I doubt Moltke spoke English. French, maybe. No one asks whether "The more
things change, the more they stay the same" would be acceptable to someone
who doesn't speak English. Sounds preposterous, actually.
Whether the saying was intended as a translation of Moltke, or was a saying
that came out of the world of planning, was seen by military types as a
pithy version of Moltke, and eventually adopted by the military as an "old
saying", it has been around as a saying for at least 30 years. People who
plan for a living, including military planners, would have seen it as a
"saying" their entire working life.
DanG
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> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject: Re: "There's an old saying..."
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Sounds very prescriptivist, especially when the source is in a foreign
> > language.
> >
> > That said, Google has a version of the phrase from 1982:
> > "As one executive remarked it seems that 'No *plan survives contact* with
> > reality'. "
> > The Realities of Planning, by Bernard Taylor and others
> >
> > I leave it to the experts to determine whether 30 years is old enough to
> be
> > old.
> >
> > DanG
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 8:37 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > Subject: Re: "There's an old saying..."
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > Because a "saying," by definition, means the words themselves (perhaps
> > > with inconsequential variations), not the general idea.
> > >
> > > Moreover, the pithy new version wryly and hyperbolically asserts that
> the
> > > _whole plan_ (any plan) is just the *first* thing that will go wrong.
> > That
> > > implies that everything you do will gang agley, and not only aft. (Is
> > > Burns's line really the same "saying" as both Moltke's and Gen.
> Honore's
> > on
> > > CNN? Of course not, though the sentiments are just as clearly related.)
> > Nor
> > > was the quasi-malign Murphy's Law view of reality that lies behind
> > > Honore's formulation was not widely endorsed by nineteenth-century
> > > intellectuals.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster: Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > Subject: Re: "There's an old saying..."
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > ------
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Garson!
> > > >
> > > > I have to ask if it is surprising that a shorthand version of
> > > > something originally written in a foreign language 132 years ago and
> > > > still studied at West Point has been described as an old saying in
> the
> > > > Army?
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 1, 2012, at 9:02 PM, Garson O'Toole <
> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster: Garson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > Subject: Re: "There's an old saying..."
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > ------
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan Goncharoff wrote
> > > > >> Didn't Moltke, der Grosse Schweiger, say this (in German)?
> > > > >> "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy".
> > > > >
> > > > > The Yale Book of Quotations provides the following translation:
> > > > >
> > > > > [Begin excerpt]
> > > > > Helmuth von Moltke
> > > > > Prussian military leader, 1800=EF=BF=BD1891
> > > > >
> > > > > No plan of operations reaches with any certainty beyond the first
> > > > > encounter with the enemy=EF=BF=BDs main force.
> > > > > Kriegsgeschichtliche Einzelschriften (1880)
> > > > > [End excerpt]
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is a cite showing a translation into English in 1891 of an
> > > > > extended version of the quotation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cite: 1891 January, Journal of the Royal United Service Institution
> > > > > (Great Britain) Volume 35, Number 155, Cruizer-War and Coast
> Defence
> > > > > by Commander H. Garbett, [Translated by permission from the
> > > > > "Mittheilungen aus dem Gebiete des Seewesens"] Start Page 47, Quote
> > > > > Page 47, Published by Harrison and Sons, London. (Google Books full
> > > > > view)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DbsJMAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22Moltke+very%22#v=
> > > =3Dsnippet&<
> >
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3DbsJMAAAAYAAJ&q=3D%22Moltke+very%22#v=%0A=3Dsnippet&
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Begin excerpt]
> > > > > Field-Marshal Moltke very rightly lays down in the volume issued by
> > > > > the General Staff on the Franco-German War, that no plan of
> > operations
> > > > > can reach with any certainty beyond the first encounter with the
> > > > > enemy's main force, and that only uninitiated civilians believe
> they
> > > > > can see in the progress of a campaign the prearranged execution of
> an
> > > > > original plan, all the details of which have been previously
> settled
> > > > > and carried out to the end.
> > > > > [End excerpt]
> > > > >
> > > > > Garson
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Dan Goncharoff <
> thegonch at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > >> Subject: Re: "There's an old saying..."
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > ------
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Didn't Moltke, der Grosse Schweiger, say this (in German)?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy".
> > > > >>
> > > > >> DanG
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Jonathan Lighter <
> > > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > >>> -----------------------
> > > > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > >>> Subject: "There's an old saying..."
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > ------
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Maybe everyone already knows this but me (Charlie and Garson in
> > > > >>> particular), but people seem to say "There's an old saying...."
> > when
> > > > what
> > > > >>> they mean is something like, "I heard somebody say this, or
> > something
> > > > very
> > > > >>> much like it, on one occasion, and it stuck in my mind because
> it's
> > > s=
> > > o
> > > > >>> clever or succinct."
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Seeming exmple from CNN the other day: "There's an old saying in
> > the
> > > > Army:
> > > > >>> 'The first thing to go bad is the plan.'"
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Sound like a genuine proverb, right? However, a Google search
> > yields
> > > > >>> nothing. Of course, I may have overlooked some slight variant
> that
> > > > would
> > > > >>> get 10,000 hits, but the principle still seems sound: for most
> > > people=
> > > ,
> > > > it
> > > > >>> only takes one utterance plus a good memory to turn a catchy
> > > > generalization
> > > > >>> an "old saying."
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> JL
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --
> > > > >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
> the
> > > > truth."
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --=20
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
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>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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