"sacred honour", "office of honour"

[Dave Wilton]

No, it just means that Hamilton didn't think that clause was very relevant
in convincing the legislators in New York to ratify the Constitution. (But I
do think the phrase would have been transparent to any lawyer.)


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
Joel S. Berson
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 4:42 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "sacred honour", "office of honour"

At 4/8/2013 03:49 PM, Dave Wilton wrote:
>Black's Law Dictionary, 8th ed., defines "office of honor" as "an
>uncompensated public position of considerable dignity and importance to
>which public trusts or interests are confided."
>
>That dictionary does not define "office of profit," but it does
>"lucrative office," which is a position that yields a salary or other
>monetary compensation.
>
>So "office of honor, Trust, or Profit" does indeed seem to simply mean
>"office, official position, either paid or unpaid." It's typical
>legalese, spelling out all the possibilities so there is no
>misinterpretation (e.g., "I'm not paid, so it's not a real office and
>I'm not subject to impeachment").
>
>Hamilton's Federalist #65, which addresses the impeachment clause, does
>not discuss the terms.

In other words, everybody knew what it meant then, so they don't need to
explain it for us now.

Joel



>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>Behalf Of Baker, John
>Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 12:54 PM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: "sacred honour", "office of honour"
>
>For those of you who don't have their Constitution at hand, the passage
>in question reads:  "Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend
>further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and
>enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but
>the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to
>Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."
>
>I believe that "Office of honor, Trust or Profit" means essentially the
>same as "office."  Certainly Story's Commentaries, secs. 781 et seq.,
>does not seem to give any great weight to the terms "honor, Trust or
>Profit" in this context.  The words may have been helpful in showing
>that the disqualification is not limited to civil offices.  Civil
>officers alone are subject to impeachment; Congress cannot impeach a
general.
>
>"Office of profit" simply meant that the office was one for pay.  For
>example, in Shepherd v. Commonwealth, 1 Serg. & Rawle 1 (Pa. 1814), we see:
>"By the Constitution of Pennsylvania, art. 5, sect. 2, it is provided
>that the Judges of the Supreme Court and Presidents of the several
>Courts of Common Pleas, "shall not hold any other office of profit
>under this Commonwealth." This was an office of profit. The
>commissioners were entitled to three dollars and fifty cents for every day
they acted."
>
>I don't think "sacred honor" meant anything different in 1787 (or in
>1776, when it was used in the Declaration of Independence) than it does
today.
>
>Incidentally, both the Declaration and the Constitution spell "honor"
>without the u.
>
>
>John Baker
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>Behalf Of Joel S. Berson
>Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 11:08 AM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: "sacred honour", "office of honour"
>
>I am interested in the meaning of the following terms in and at the
>time of the adoption of the US Constitution:
>
>sacred honour
>
>office of trust
>office of honour
>office of profit
>
>In the Constitution the last three appear in, and apparently only in,
>the article dealing with impeachment, where they are listed together
>and are not distinguished.  A litle bit of Googling suggests that there
>were no definitions because everyone knew what they meant!
>
>"Office of profit" I will guess is one where the revenues are farmed,
>and a portion provides compensation for the office-holder.  But that's
>only a guess.
>
>Joel
>
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