Counting by 10s vs. 20s

[Geoffrey Steven Nathan]

It is vestigial in modern French, but you do find 'deux' and even 'trois vingts' in Old French documents. The French Wikipedia says: 

Il aurait alors intégré l'ancien français, où on trouvait ainsi les formes vingt et dix (30), deux vingt (40), deux vingt et dix (50), trois vingt (60), etc. ( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syst%C3%A8me_vic%C3%A9simal ) 

Most of this went away at the end of the Middle Ages, a nd, of course, the system has disappeared entirely in some Francophone countries, including Switzerland and Belgium (septante, nonante). 

Geoffrey S. Nathan 
Faculty Liaison, C&IT 
and Professor, Linguistics Program 
http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ 
+1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) 

Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. 

----- Original Message -----

> From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 3:32:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Counting by 10s vs. 20s

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Counting by 10s vs. 20s
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> I wouldn't call it a vigesimal counting system, nor would I say that
> (French) French counts the numbers by twenties based on a couple of
> quirks. There's just one instance of a twenty showing up
> unexpectedly: "quatre vingts" ('four twenties') for '80' and as a
> component of numbers up to 99, which is thus "quatre-vingt-dix-neuf"
> or 4 x 20 + (10 + 9). There's an equally weird instance of 60
> featuring in numbers between 60 and 79 (soixante-dix-neuf, or 60 +
> (10 + 9). But it seems to be that a really vigesimal system would
> insist on "trois vingts" etc., not "soixante".

> LH

> On Aug 22, 2013, at 12:56 PM, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote:

> > The standard theory is that it was borrowed from Celtic languages
> > spoken in the area where French developed . Some Celtic languages
> > do indeed have 'vigesimal' counting systems ((Breton, Welsh, Scots
> > Gaelic and Irish all have or had it) .
> > Others think the borrowing went the other way round. Vennemann
> > (whom some of you know) thinks it's Basque in origin.
> > There's some discussion in the Wikipedia article on Vigesimal
> > counting systems
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigesimal#Origins
> >
> > but any comprehensive recent history of French would cover it in
> > some considerable detail.
> >
> > Geoffrey S. Nathan
> > Faculty Liaison, C&IT
> > and Professor, Linguistics Program
> > http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/
> > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT)
> >
> > Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never
> > send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email
> > looks.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >> From: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 11:48:58 AM
> >> Subject: Counting by 10s vs. 20s
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> >> Subject: Counting by 10s vs. 20s
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >> What is the received wisdom why English counts the God-given
> >> natural
> >> numbers by tens, whereas French counts them by
> >> twenties? Did European serfs of colder Northern Europe wear shoes,
> >> while the peasants of warmer Southern Europe went barefoot?
> >
> >> (Only the second question above is facetious; I am curious about
> >> the
> >> first question.)
> >
> >> Joel
> >
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> >
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