Counting by 10s vs. 20s

Fri Aug 23 01:26:02 UTC 2013

At 8/22/2013 04:02 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>On Aug 22, 2013, at 3:57 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>
> > At 8/22/2013 03:47 PM, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote:
> >
> >> It is vestigial in modern French,
> >
> > Otherwise known as the vestigial vigesimal, of course.
> >
> > My question is not really about how pure it is in
> > French, nor where it arose and spread to.  But
> > rather, *why* did it arise?  Lost in prehistory,
> > but that has never discouraged speculators.
> >
> > Joel
>
>Back then the French mostly went around wearing
>sandals, which made it easy for them to keep
>track of their counts with toes as well as fingers.  Speculative enough?

That's similar to the speculation in my original
message ("Did  European serfs of colder Northern
Europe wear shoes, while the peasants of warmer
Southern Europe went barefoot?").   And the
similar "speculations" Ben pointed us to about
the octal and duodecimal systems seem correct, as
they are used in finger-counting systems
today.  I suppose hexadecimal could be attributed
to counting the ends of the finger bones, 4 ends
(of three bones) on each of 4 fingers.  Things I
had not speculated about before.

Joel

>LH
>
> >
> >> but you do find 'deux' and even 'trois vingts'
> >> in Old French documents. The French Wikipedia says:
> >>
> >> Il aurait alors intÃ©grÃ© l'ancien franÃ§ais,
> >> oÃ¹ on trouvait ainsi les formes vingt et dix
> >> (30), deux vingt (40), deux vingt et dix (50),
> >> trois vingt (60), etc. (
> >> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syst%C3%A8me_vic%C3%A9simal )
> >>
> >> Most of this went away at the end of the Middle
> >> Ages, a nd, of course, the system has
> >> disappeared entirely in some Francophone
> >> countries, including Switzerland and Belgium (septante, nonante).
> >>
> >> Geoffrey S. Nathan
> >> Faculty Liaison, C&IT
> >> and Professor, Linguistics Program
> >> http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/
> >> +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT)
> >>
> >> Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your
> >> password. Never send it to anyone in an email,
> >> no matter how authentic the email looks.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>
> >> > From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> >> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 3:32:00 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: Counting by 10s vs. 20s
> >>
> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> > -----------------------
> >> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> >> > Subject: Re: Counting by 10s vs. 20s
> >> >
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> > I wouldn't call it a vigesimal counting system, nor would I say that
> >> > (French) French counts the numbers by twenties based on a couple of
> >> > quirks. There's just one instance of a twenty showing up
> >> > unexpectedly: "quatre vingts" ('four twenties') for '80' and as a
> >> > component of numbers up to 99, which is thus "quatre-vingt-dix-neuf"
> >> > or 4 x 20 + (10 + 9). There's an equally weird instance of 60
> >> > featuring in numbers between 60 and 79 (soixante-dix-neuf, or 60 +
> >> > (10 + 9). But it seems to be that a really vigesimal system would
> >> > insist on "trois vingts" etc., not "soixante".
> >>
> >> > LH
> >>
> >> > On Aug 22, 2013, at 12:56 PM, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote:
> >>
> >> > > The standard theory is that it was borrowed from Celtic languages
> >> > > spoken in the area where French developed . Some Celtic languages
> >> > > do indeed have 'vigesimal' counting systems ((Breton, Welsh, Scots
> >> > > Gaelic and Irish all have or had it) .
> >> > > Others think the borrowing went the other way round. Vennemann
> >> > > (whom some of you know) thinks it's Basque in origin.
> >> > > There's some discussion in the Wikipedia article on Vigesimal
> >> > > counting systems
> >> > >
> >> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigesimal#Origins
> >> > >
> >> > > but any comprehensive recent history of French would cover it in
> >> > > some considerable detail.
> >> > >
> >> > > Geoffrey S. Nathan
> >> > > Faculty Liaison, C&IT
> >> > > and Professor, Linguistics Program
> >> > > http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/
> >> > > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT)
> >> > >
> >> > > Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never
> >> > > send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email
> >> > > looks.
> >> > >
> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > >
> >> > >> From: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> >> > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> > >> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 11:48:58 AM
> >> > >> Subject: Counting by 10s vs. 20s
> >> > >
> >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> > >> -----------------------
> >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> >> > >> Subject: Counting by 10s vs. 20s
> >> > >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >
> >> > >> What is the received wisdom why English counts the God-given
> >> > >> natural
> >> > >> numbers by tens, whereas French counts them by
> >> > >> twenties? Did European serfs of colder Northern Europe wear shoes,
> >> > >> while the peasants of warmer Southern Europe went barefoot?
> >> > >
> >> > >> (Only the second question above is facetious; I am curious about
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> first question.)
> >> > >
> >> > >> Joel
> >> > >
> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> > >
> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org