The precise terminology of modern science

Sun Feb 17 06:00:10 UTC 2013

Thanks for your insights, Jocelyn and LH. Researcher Ralph Keyes dates
Steve Allen's use of the interrogative "Is it bigger than a breadbox?"
to 1953. Source notes are not visible in GB for Keyes' book so I am
not sure what evidence he uses.

The descriptive phrase "bigger than a breadbox" was apparently used in
the 1940s. See further below.

Also, I recommend consulting the extraordinarily capacious and helpful
website of Barry Popik for more data:

http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/is_it_bigger_than_a_breadbox/

Title: I Love It When You Talk Retro: Hoochie Coochie, Double Whammy,
Drop a Dime, and the Forgotten Origins of American Speech
Author: Ralph Keyes
Publisher: Macmillan
Year: 2009
(Google Books Preview)

http://books.google.com/books?id=bu8cazHO9Z4C&q=%22a+breadbox%22

[Begin extracted text]
“About the size of a breadbox” can still be heard, or “no bigger than
a breadbox.” That's because “Is it bigger than a breadbox?” was a
running gag on the TV show What's My Line? from the time host Steve
Allen first asked this question in 1953, when trying to determine what
product a contestant worked with, until the show expired in 1967. (It
lived on as a common query in the word game Twenty Questions.)
[End extracted text]

Here are two cites for the phrase "bigger than a breadbox " that are
probably in the 1940s:

Title: The American magazine
Volume: 136
Page: 18 according to GB
Year: 1943
Publisher: Frank Leslie Publishing House
(Google Books snippet; data may be inaccurate; probe with 1943 shows
that the volume contains issues published in 1943)
http://books.google.com/books?id=vdNZAAAAYAAJ&q=+breadbox#search_anchor

[Begin extracted text]
MARKETED a flour mill for use in the farmhouse kitchen. Weighing only
15 pounds and occupying a space no larger than a breadbox, the tiny
mill grinds from 12 pounds of fine flour to 60 pounds of coarse flour
in an hour.
[End extracted text]

Title: Fortnight: The Newsmagazine of California
Volumes: 6-7 according to GB
Publisher: O.D. Keep
Year: 1949
(Google Books snippet; data may be inaccurate; probes with 1949, 1950
indicate date is plausible)
http://books.google.com/books?id=IT87AQAAIAAJ&q=breadbox#search_anchor

[Begin extracted text]
... an LA manufacturer put a portable automatic dishwasher on the
market. Dubbed "Her Majesty" and not much bigger than a breadbox, the
washer uses no electricity, needs no installation, balances beside the
sink or stores under a cupboard.
[End extracted text]

Garson

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
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> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: The precise terminology of modern science
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Feb 16, 2013, at 11:45 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote:
>
>> My "authority" for the "breadbox" origin being from Steve Allen and not
>> from "Twenty Questions" is the following from my long-time friend and
>> long-time former Washington Post TV Critic Tom Shales, a most reliable
>> source of all kinds of TV trivia:
>>
>> "I dont mind being quoted or mind not being but i AM certain that it's
>> "bigger"  than a bread box & that Mr Allen wittily invented the question.
>> Guests on what's my line often dealt in a "product" & Steve invented this
>> clever way of estimating the product's size (the panelists' questions  had
>> to be answerable with a yes or no).
>>
>> "That "animal vegetable or mineral" thing strikes a responsive chord but I
>> cannot remember what show it was used on.
>
> It was the free clue at the beginning of 20 Questions the way we played it.  Maybe (if I can extrapolate from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Questions) that was a blend of the original 20 Questions game and a separate "A, V, or M?" game. The 20 Questions questions also had to be answered yes or no, so that doesn't distinguish between the two (although it does show that the "A, V, or M?" couldn't be part of the game itself, or the only appropriate answer would have been "Yes"), and if anything the breadbox question would be even more relevant to 20Q than What's My Line, since not all of the occupations in the latter involved selling or making a particular product.  But as I say I don't really know who had it first.  And besides having been a fan of Steve Allen I was a classmate of Arlene Francis's son, so I wouldn't want to deprecate WML.
>
> LH
>
>> Of course being used on a show
>> doesn't mean it was invented for that show but the "breadbox" line was. A
>> genuine moment of inspiration!"
>>
>> And, of course, I've since found the reference to the "Twenty Questions" TV.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 11:32 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>> Subject:      Re: The precise terminology of modern science
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> On Feb 16, 2013, at 11:13 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, there was a TV show, "Twenty Questions."
>>>
>>> Oops.  Of course there was.  What was(n't) I thinking?  Now the only
>>> question is whether the "bigger than a breadbox" started there or on What's
>>> My Line.
>>>
>>> I see from wikipedia that:
>>> "The most common reference to breadboxes is the phrase "Is it bigger than
>>> a breadbox?" when trying to guess what some surprise object may be. This
>>> question was popularized by Steve Allen on the American game show What's My
>>> Line? and remains a popular question in the parlor game 20 Questions."
>>> Not really determinative one way or the other.
>>>
>>> Parlor game indeed!
>>>
>>> LH
>>>>
>>>> "Twenty Questions" has a Wikipedia listing.
>>>>
>>>> The following quote is from it:
>>>>
>>>> "As a television series, *Twenty Questions* debuted as a local show in
>>> New
>>>> York on WOR-TV <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWOR-TV> Channel 9 on
>>> November
>>>> 2, 1949. Beginning on November 26, the series went nationwide on
>>>> NBC<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBC>until December 24, after which it
>>>> remained dormant until March 17, 1950
>>>> when it was picked up by
>>>> ABC<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Broadcasting_Company>until
>>>> June 29, 1951.
>>>> "Its longest and most well-known run, however, is the one on the DuMont
>>>> Television Network
>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuMont_Television_Network>from July 6,
>>>> 1951 to May 30, 1954. During this time, original host Bill
>>>> Slater <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Slater_%28broadcaster%29> was
>>>> replaced by Jay Jackson. After this run ended, ABC picked up the series
>>>> once again from July 6, 1954 to May 3, 1955. The last radio show had been
>>>> broadcast on March 27, 1954."
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 9:57 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>>>> Subject:      Re: The precise terminology of modern science
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 16, 2013, at 9:16 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually the phrase was "BIGGER than
>>>>>> a breadbox" and it was coined by Steve Allen when he served as a
>>> panelist
>>>>>> on "What's My Line?" in the 1950's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember that also being a useful (or at least much-used) clue in
>>> Twenty
>>>>> Questions ("Animal, Vegetable, or Mineral?"), a game that did not have
>>> its
>>>>> own TV show but was frequently played during long car rides.
>>>>>
>>>>> LH
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>>>>>>> Subject:      The precise terminology of modern science
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From an illustration titled "Fireball" attached to the NYTimes
>>>>>>> article on the Chelyabinsk meteor:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "An _asteroid_ is a rock large than a boulder orbiting in the inner
>>>>>>> solar system, usually between Mars and Jupiter."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the good old days, it used to be "larger than a breadbox."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joel
>>>>>>>
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