big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'

[Dan Goncharoff]

I believe there was a substantial Hungarian contingent in the Habsburg
Army. It would have been distinctively dressed, too. I wouldn't dismiss
it's influence.

On Friday, January 25, 2013, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<javascript:;>
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> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM <javascript:;>>
> Subject:      Re: big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You're right about the 1802 date, Dave. The anthology I was looking at gave
> it wrongly, possibly because Campbell had been in Bavaria in 1800. Several
> months before Hohenlinden, he'd witnessed an extended skirmish at
> Regensburg from the roof of the monastery.
>
> The scenes were "so horrible to my memory that I study to banish them."
>
> By the time Hohenlinden was fought, Campbell was in Altona.
>
> Note for pedants: Campbell's letters refer to "Hungarians" among the
> Habsburg troops, so one might argue that his "Huns" actually "refers to"
> Hungarians. Possibly "Hungarian" helped prompt the association, but the
> Habsburg army was overwhelmingly Bavarian and Austrian, and it's the entire
> army he's talking about in the poem.
>
> And no, there's little doubt that the 20th C. application of "Huns" owes
> almost everything to the Kaiser's pep talk.
>
> JL
>
> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Dave Wilton <dave at wilton.net<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
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> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<javascript:;>
> >
> > Poster:       Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET <javascript:;>>
> > Subject:      Re: big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Neat find!
> >
> > Although, the proximate inspiration for the twentieth century usage is
> > still
> > probably Kaiser Wilhelm II's speech of 27 July 1900. (I would bet that
> > Kipling knew Campbell's poem, and it was in the back of his mind when he
> > popularized the term--although Kipling was not the first to use the term
> in
> > the wake of the Kaiser's speech. Several British newspapers picked up on
> > "Hun," as the OED demonstrates.)
> >
> > Although the publication date of the poem is 1802. The battle of
> > Hohenlinden
> > was fought in 1800.
> >
> > http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poems/hohenlinden
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<javascript:;>]
> On Behalf
> > Of
> > Jonathan Lighter
> > Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 5:12 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <javascript:;>
> > Subject: big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'
> >
> > OED, like HDAS,  dates this name for militaristic Germans to the years
> > after
> > 1900. It may have been popularized by Kipling.
> >
> > Surprisingly, however, both HDAS and OED missed an earlier, albeit
> poetic,
> > appearance in one of the best-known poems of the nineteenth century,
> Thomas
> > Campbell's "Hohenlinden" (1800):
> >
> > 'Tis morn; but scarce yon level sun
> > Can pierce the war-clouds, rolling dun,
> > Where furious Frank and fiery Hun
> >        Shout in their sulphurous canopy.
> >
> > Hohenlinden was fought near Munich in December, 1800, between the
> imperial
> > forces of Napoleon and those of the Holy Roman Emperor Franz I, of the
> > House
> > of Habsburg. Franz's army was composed of Austrians and Bavarians.
> >
> > JL
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
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--
DanG

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