on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version)

[Benjamin Barrett]

My thanks to everyone who reminded me of the earlier conversation. Even if that hadn't been at the end of a long day, I probably wouldn't have recalled it--because I doubt that I use that word. My instinct is to say "use X instead of Y."

Benjamin Barrett
Seattle, WA

On Mar 4, 2013, at 6:28 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

> The objection (or, to put it more neutrally, the non-occurring example) for us old-timers arises from the preposition governed by "substitute".  You can replace butter with olive oil, or equivalently (as in your Mac dictionary examples) substitute olive for butter, but you can't substitute butter with olive oil or vice versa.  In fact I still have trouble figuring out what's being moved in and what's being deleted in such cases, but as Wiktionary says this use is increasing despite the carping (or the non-comprehension) from the old-timers.
>
> We've certainly discussed it to death here, and there are no doubt Language Log or other blogs on the topic, as Ben will remind us.
>
> Curiously it doesn't seem to be recognized in AHD5.  I can't remember it coming up in the Usage Panel questionnaire either.  Steve K?
>
> LH
>
> On Mar 4, 2013, at 7:53 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote:
>
>> I don't understand the objection, but FWIW, that use seems to match my Mac dictionary:
>>
>> [ with obj. ]
>> use or add in place of: dried rosemary can be substituted for the fresh herb.
>> [ no obj. ] act or serve as a substitute: I found someone to substitute for me.
>> • replace (someone or something) with another: customs officers substituted the drugs with another substance / this was substituted by a new clause.
>> • replace (a sports player) with a substitute during a contest: he was substituted for Nichols in the fifth inning.
>>
>> Wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/substitute) also seems to accept this use.
>>
>> Of "substitute, the OED says:  To fill the place of (a person or thing) with a replacement; = replace v. 2b. Use in this sense has been sometimes criticized (as with sense 3a), but is now generally regarded as part of normal standard English.
>>
>> Benjamin Barrett
>> Seattle, WA
>>
>> On Mar 4, 2013, at 4:33 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>
>>> I couldn't help noticing and cringing when a twentysomething fitness guru
>>> on CNN yesterday said the "you can substitute butter with olive oil" and
>>> some other X with another Y.
>>>
>>> Clearly =3D "replace."
>>>
>>> Another ex. of the same phrase from 2011:
>>> http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/health/2011/12/11/avoiding-holiday-blues-i=
>>> t-can-affect-your-heart/#ixzz2MZdCT6p2
>>>
>>> "Substitute butter with olive oil: A study from the American Journal of
>>> Clinical Nutrition shows that subjects limited lipid and insulin responses
>>> when eating a meal high in mono-saturated fats (olive oil) instead of a
>>> meal high in saturated fat (butter)."
>>>
>>> The context suggests that the journalist should, by the standards of the
>>> superannuated, know better.
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> O

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