"Narrative" again
Dan Goncharoff
thegonch at GMAIL.COM
Thu May 2 15:42:09 UTC 2013
I don't see an issue with the use of narrative to mean "explanation in the
form of a story", whether journalistic, historical, or psychological.
I do agree that CNN has made the word meaningless. (I am surprised that no
one mentioned the mixed metaphor -- moving parts in a narrative?)
DanG
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: "Narrative" again
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Just now on CNN:
>
> "The Student Visa Program is a bunch of moving parts in a very complex
> narrative."
>
> Arrangement? Order? Structure? System?
>
> JL
>
>
> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > Subject: Re: "Narrative" again
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > At 5/2/2013 08:52 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > >People scoffed years ago when I noted that "fact" can now mean
> "assertion
> > >or idea."
> > >
> > >If you see what I'm saying.
> >
> > I believe I did & do -- that "narrative" can now mean (presumably to
> > both some writers and some readers) "an historically true and correct
> > description of what happened." It's just that I know better -- and I
> > also mistrust anyone who says "narrative". :-) Or perhaps to be
> > more serious -- I don't believe any historical exposition until I
> > find two or more independently-asserted narratives saying the same
> > thing -- and they meet tests of common sense.
> >
> > Joel
> >
> >
> > >JL
> > >
> > >
> > >On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > Subject: Re: "Narrative" again
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > At 5/1/2013 09:13 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > > > >FWIW:
> > > > >
> > > > >2013 _New Yorker_ (May 6) 22: Young American women now [are] caught
> > in a
> > > > >post-post-feminist narrative in which it is proposed that sexual
> > > > >emancipation may be achieved through emotional disengagement.
> > > > >
> > > > >Who's doing the "narrating"?
> > > >
> > > > The problem here is not with "narrative" but with the actor-less
> > > > subjunctive. I think. But anything with "post" in it, let alone the
> > > > double negative "post-post", confuses me.
> > > >
> > > > Joel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >JL
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: "Narrative" again
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree. For discussions of historical events, "narrative"
> > suggests
> > > > > > to me the same as Dave describes below, creating a coherent
> > account,
> > > > > > perhaps chronological, that fits the events into a plausible,
> > > > > > logically possible tale. Not necessarily correct, but not in
> > > > > > conflict with anything known.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Joel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 5/1/2013 10:34 AM, Dave Wilton wrote:
> > > > > > >I don't think "liberal propaganda" or even "popular supposition"
> > is
> > > > > > implied.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >The usage falls under OED definition 2.a. "Narrative" is
> > frequently
> > > > used
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > >simply as a recounting of facts and events, but an expression
> > that is
> > > > done
> > > > > > >in a way to create a coherent story that explains those facts.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I've probably most often heard this sense in context of
> > litigation,
> > > > where
> > > > > > >lawyers will seek to create a "narrative" to convince the jury
> or
> > > > judges.
> > > > > > >(David Boies is often recognized as being especially skilled at
> > > > creating
> > > > > > >convincing narratives out of the facts of a case.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >The analyst is simply expressing the opinion that the
> explanation
> > > > that the
> > > > > > >bombers did not have foreign connections may not fit all the
> > facts;
> > > > that a
> > > > > > >good analyst questions assumptions. From an intelligence
> > perspective,
> > > > this
> > > > > > >skeptical attitude is probably healthy. (Although the comment
> > could be
> > > > > > >xenophobic. I don't know who said it or the broader context in
> > which
> > > > it
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > >said.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]
> On
> > > > Behalf
> > > > > > Of
> > > > > > >Jonathan Lighter
> > > > > > >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 9:14 AM
> > > > > > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: "Narrative" again
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Former CIA analyst on the bombing plot (CNN):
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >"I think it is wrong for us to take the narrative that it was
> just
> > > > > > >homegrown."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >It would never even occur to me to use "narrative" in this
> > context.
> > > > > > > Possibly "obtuse liberal propaganda" is implied, but I did not
> > get
> > > > that
> > > > > > >impression. It seems to me that here it means "popular
> > supposition."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >In real time, of course.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >JL
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 6:49 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> > > > > > ><wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <
> ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >
> > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: "Narrative" again
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > ---------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > CNN anchor: Does Rick Perry's performance in the last debate
> > follow
> > > > > > > > the narrative of his campaign?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Political Scientist: Unfortunately, the narrative about Rick
> > > > Perry in
> > > > > > > > this campaign is that he's not ready for prime time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > JL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> > > > > > > > <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > > > -----------------------
> > > > > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <
> > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: "Narrative" again
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > ---------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A former Republican Congressman on CNN today:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Blaming 'right-wing Republicans' [for debt/deficit/budget
> > > > > > > > > difficulties]
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > a narrative that won't fly."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I.e., a propaganda move.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > JL
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Joel S. Berson <
> > Berson at att.net>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > > > > >> -----------------------
> > > > > > > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society <
> > ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > > > > >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > > > > > > > >> Subject: "Narrative" again
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > ---------
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> In an article in today's NYTimes on the conviction of five
> > New
> > > > > > > > >> Orleans police offers of unjustified shooting of six
> > citizens
> > > > just
> > > > > > > > >> after Hurricane Katrina, Campbell Robertson writes:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> "The trial was not only about these five officers but
> > also
> > > > > > > > >> about what exactly happened in the weeks after the
> > hurricane, a
> > > > > > > > >> sort of judgment on the initial widely held belief that
> the
> > > > > > > > >> authorities were trying to control elements of a citizenry
> > run
> > > > > > rampant.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> ":In the years since, that narrative has been
> > qualified.
> > > > While
> > > > > > > > >> some people did turn to crime and violence, it has become
> > > > apparent
> > > > > > > > >> that some of the bloodshed and chaos was brought about by
> > > > members
> > > > > > > > >> of the long-troubled Police Department."
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Joel
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >> The American Dialect Society -
> > http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't
> > handle
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > truth."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society -
> > http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't
> > handle the
> > > > > > >truth."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > The American Dialect Society -
> http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >--
> > > > > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle
> > the
> > > > > > truth."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--
> > > > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > > > truth."
> > > > >
> > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> > >
> > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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