big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'

[Laurence Horn]

On Nov 12, 2013, at 3:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> YBQ probably should include the Kaiser's 1900 exhortation to his troops:
>
> "When you meet the enemy,... you will give no pardon and take no prisoners.
> ...As the Huns a thousand years ago under King Etzel [i.e., Attila]

Aha! So *that* explains why the car didn't sell!  I knew it must have been more than just the horse-collar grille.

LH

> made a
> name for themselves that has lasted mightily in memory, so may the name
> 'Germany' be known in China so that no Chinese will ever again even dare to
> look askance at a German."
>
> JL
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 9:56 PM, Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Dan Goncharoff <thegonch at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I believe there was a substantial Hungarian contingent in the Habsburg
>> Army. It would have been distinctively dressed, too. I wouldn't dismiss
>> it's influence.
>>
>> On Friday, January 25, 2013, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> <javascript:;>
>>>>
>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM <javascript:;>>
>>> Subject:      Re: big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'
>>>
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> You're right about the 1802 date, Dave. The anthology I was looking at
>> gave
>>> it wrongly, possibly because Campbell had been in Bavaria in 1800.
>> Several
>>> months before Hohenlinden, he'd witnessed an extended skirmish at
>>> Regensburg from the roof of the monastery.
>>>
>>> The scenes were "so horrible to my memory that I study to banish them."
>>>
>>> By the time Hohenlinden was fought, Campbell was in Altona.
>>>
>>> Note for pedants: Campbell's letters refer to "Hungarians" among the
>>> Habsburg troops, so one might argue that his "Huns" actually "refers to"
>>> Hungarians. Possibly "Hungarian" helped prompt the association, but the
>>> Habsburg army was overwhelmingly Bavarian and Austrian, and it's the
>> entire
>>> army he's talking about in the poem.
>>>
>>> And no, there's little doubt that the 20th C. application of "Huns" owes
>>> almost everything to the Kaiser's pep talk.
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Dave Wilton <dave at wilton.net
>> <javascript:;>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
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>>>>
>>>> Poster:       Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET <javascript:;>>
>>>> Subject:      Re: big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Neat find!
>>>>
>>>> Although, the proximate inspiration for the twentieth century usage is
>>>> still
>>>> probably Kaiser Wilhelm II's speech of 27 July 1900. (I would bet that
>>>> Kipling knew Campbell's poem, and it was in the back of his mind when
>> he
>>>> popularized the term--although Kipling was not the first to use the
>> term
>>> in
>>>> the wake of the Kaiser's speech. Several British newspapers picked up
>> on
>>>> "Hun," as the OED demonstrates.)
>>>>
>>>> Although the publication date of the poem is 1802. The battle of
>>>> Hohenlinden
>>>> was fought in 1800.
>>>>
>>>> http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poems/hohenlinden
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> <javascript:;>]
>>> On Behalf
>>>> Of
>>>> Jonathan Lighter
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 5:12 PM
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <javascript:;>
>>>> Subject: big antedating of "Hun" = 'German.'
>>>>
>>>> OED, like HDAS,  dates this name for militaristic Germans to the years
>>>> after
>>>> 1900. It may have been popularized by Kipling.
>>>>
>>>> Surprisingly, however, both HDAS and OED missed an earlier, albeit
>>> poetic,
>>>> appearance in one of the best-known poems of the nineteenth century,
>>> Thomas
>>>> Campbell's "Hohenlinden" (1800):
>>>>
>>>> 'Tis morn; but scarce yon level sun
>>>> Can pierce the war-clouds, rolling dun,
>>>> Where furious Frank and fiery Hun
>>>>       Shout in their sulphurous canopy.
>>>>
>>>> Hohenlinden was fought near Munich in December, 1800, between the
>>> imperial
>>>> forces of Napoleon and those of the Holy Roman Emperor Franz I, of the
>>>> House
>>>> of Habsburg. Franz's army was composed of Austrians and Bavarians.
>>>>
>>>> JL
>>>> --
>>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>>> truth."
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
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>>
>>
>> --
>> DanG
>>
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>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
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