tent-pissing follow-up

Sun Oct 13 06:02:34 UTC 2013

Thanks Joel! That video and the cites provide excellent evidence that
a camel in a tent can urinate outside the tent.

The earliest cite I currently know of for the camel version of the
saying is 1988 (unverified GB). As LH noted the saying without the
camel was used by LBJ in 1971. The case for the existence of an Arab
proverb would be strengthened with an earlier citation. I do not know
the status of large-scale Arabic language databases.

Multiple references connect the saying to LBJ.

The New York Public Library Book of Twentieth-Century American Quotations (1992)

[Begin excerpt]
It's probably better to have him [J. Edgar Hoover] inside the tent
pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in.

LYNDON B. JOHNSON, New York Times, October 31, 1971
[End excerpt]

Oxford Dictionary of Humorous Quotations (2008)

[Begin excerpt]
Better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside pissing in.
of I. Edgar Hoover

Lyndon Baines Johnson 1908-73: David Halberstam The Best and the
Brightest (1972)
[End excerpt]

Garson

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: tent-pissing follow-up
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Perhaps a better answer than my previous -- word of the day: "retromingent".
>
> "The male camel urinates backward."
> Encyclopaedia Iranica,
> http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/camel-sotor  Who am I to
> quarrel with the Iranians?
>
> Many other claims of the same.
>
> Video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXlCwGij6GI
>
>
> Joel
>
> At 10/11/2013 04:37 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote:
>>Thanks to Joel who back on September 3rd presented an interesting
>>pointer to an edition of Dan Simmons, Phases of Gravity that included
>>an instance of the saying about urination and tents that was labeled
>>an "Old Arab proverb".
>>
>>Title: Phases of Gravity
>>Author: Dan Simmons
>>Quote Page 198
>>Date information: Copyright 1989 by Dan Simmons / First e-reads
>>publication 1999
>>(Google Books Preview)
>>http://books.google.com/books?id=hRvkKmj6rLgC&q=camel#v=snippet&
>>
>>[Begin excerpt]
>>"A camel pissing out, eh?" said Baedecker, following carefully.
>>"What's that?" said Tucker as he crouched in front of the low, round hatch.
>>"Old Arab proverb," said Baedecker. "It's better to have the camel
>>inside your tent pissing out than outside pissing in."
>>[End excerpt]
>>
>>The page images in Google Books are from a 1999 edition or later. But
>>the first publication for "Phases of Gravity" was in 1989, and I think
>>there is a high probability that the text was in the first edition
>>though I have not verified this claim on paper.
>>
>>Google Books seems to have a citation from a Dartmouth conference
>>dialog held in 1988 between U.S. and U.S.S.R. participants. This data
>>is from a document in GB restricted snippet view.
>>
>>Year: 1988
>>Title: Discussion papers
>>Source: Dartmouth Conference XVI; Charles F. Kettering Foundation.;
>>Johnson Foundation (Racine, Wis.)
>>Publisher Location: Dayton, Ohio [etc.]
>>Summary description: The Conferences constitute "off-the-record
>>dialogue on major issues between leading citizens of the Soviet Union
>>and the United States."
>>Quote Page 310
>>(GB data may be inaccurate)
>>
>>[Begin extracted text]
>>... I was going to say that I agree with both of you that it is really
>>important to try to settle whatever can be settled in this
>>Administration. I do not think what you say is wrong. I think it is
>>going to be much harder to settle those issues afterwards. I would put
>>it very crudely: it is much better to have the camel in the tent than
>>to have the camel on the outside pissing in. And therefore, in answer
>>to my Soviet colleague's question whether they should just give up and
>>relax--the answer is absolutely not.
>>[End extracted text]
>>
>>Is this a genuine or ersatz "Arab proverb" from the past? One way to
>>explore this question involves evaluating the physical plausibility of
>>the saying. Can a camel inside a tent urinate outside the tent?
>>
>>The link below shows a horse urinating. I used a horse as a proxy for
>>a camel. The horse urine seems to land directly below the horse. So a
>>horse in a tent will probably urinate inside the tent. If this is true
>>for a camel then I think the probability that the saying is a genuine
>>Arab proverb is reduced.
>>
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2ZAHtEy0Xw
>>
>>I hypothesize that the saying with a camel was derived from LBJ's
>>saying. The quotations ascribed to LBJ do not mention a camel. He
>>referred to a male human urinating which makes sense physically. LBJ
>>also mentioned a tent. I conjecture that the word tent was a trigger
>>that caused someone else to add the embellishment/modification of a
>>camel instead of a human male.
>>
>>Garson
>>
>>
>>On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 10:19 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> > Subject:      Re: tent-pissing follow-up
>> >
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > At 9/3/2013 09:42 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole wrote:
>> >>Indeed, it is possible that this is not an "Arab proverb". It might
>> >>simply be a modern saying that mentions a camel.
>> >
>> > I am skeptical that LBJ invented a proverb that involved a camel
>> > (although someone else might have).  Wouldn't LBJ have picked an
>> > animal more common in Texas, such as a sheep or goat?
>> >
>> > OTOH, I wrote in a previous message that my memory of the allegedly
>> > Arab proverb must go back earlier than 1989.  It may actually go back
>> > to LBJ's use.  Proving nothing, of course, except that my memory is poor.
>> >
>> > Joel
>> >
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