"Miss" vs. "Ma'am"

[Laurence Horn]

On Oct 28, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Benjamin Torbert wrote:

> I'd like to make the point Dennis Preston made at a conference when Janet
> Fuller was giving the "Ms" paper in that form.
>
> Where I come from, Mrs, Miss, and Ms, are all homophonous as "miz."  That's
> the Indiana side of Louisville in Preston's case, (I think), and NW Georgia
> in mine (I know).
>
> BT

True, but as remarked earlier in the thread, "Ms." is unlikely as a term of address as opposed to a title (followed by a last name).  And the same is typically (though not invariably) true for "Mrs."  So I think if one is addressed as /mIz/ or /mIs/ without a last name (or first name, in the old Southern style), I would wager it's "Miss" the speaker is uttering.  And as various sociolinguistic papers have demonstrated, the northern counterpart of "Ma'am" is often "Hon" or "Dear" (as discussed in Nessa Wolfson's paper "Don't Dear Me").

LH


>
>
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
>> Subject:      Re: "Miss" vs. "Ma'am"
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> At 10/28/2013 12:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>> in regions such as New England where particular ties to England still
>>> exist.
>>>
>>> They gotta be kidding.
>>
>> I hear the two daughters of Mather Byles are still living in the
>> South End, in the remnant of their father's house that survived the
>> street widening, still refusing to accept the outcome of the
>> Revolution and expecting a royal governor to return.
>>
>> Joel
>>
>>
>>> Hey, Wacki! NYC isn't in New England, either.
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 10:29 AM, W Brewer <brewerwa at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       W Brewer <brewerwa at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: "Miss" vs. "Ma'am"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> RE: <Miss> vs. <Ma'am> as modes of direct address.  I tend to agree
>> with
>>>> Wikipedia s.v. Madam: <<In speaking, Madam is used in direct address
>> when
>>>> the lady's name is not known; . . . In the United States and in
>>>> English-speaking Canada, "ma'am" is usually used, except in regions
>> such as
>>>> New England where particular ties to England still exist. Even then,
>>>> "madam" tends to only be used when addressing the elderly, with "ma'am"
>>>> being used for a younger woman. The male equivalent is "sir".>>
>>>>
>>>> In my Berkeley days 1972-4, <miss> was tabu in any mode of address. At
>> UCLA
>>>> 1974-84 (just down the road from Hollywood), I could only hear aging
>>>> actresses (oops! mature female actors) addressed as Miss [stage name].
>>>> Titles are a somewhat different kettle of fish (or can of worms,
>> actually),
>>>> but, the older my female classmates became, the more like their mothers
>>>> they have become, not minding at all being called Mrs. [husband's
>> surname,
>>>> or some quasi-hyphenated hybrid therefrom]. The baby boomers who led
>> the
>>>> cultural revolution just grew up to talk like . . . we do.
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
>> truth."
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