"hedge in the cuckoo"

[Charles C Doyle]

I'm not necessarily doubting you, Dan, but what is the evidence that "by the 18th century, the phrase 'hedging the cuckoo' meant 'hedging one's bet', taking both sides"?

In ECBO I find only one instance of the phrase, and there it refers to impossibility:

>From the anonymous _Dictionary of Love_ (1753, with several later editions), in the entry for "dress":

"There is no giving all the points . . . here:  that would require a dictionary apart; and then it would be like hedging the cuckoo . . . ."

--Charlie

________________________________________
From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Dan Goncharoff [thegonch at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 3:28 PM
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Two sources of confusion:

the hedge sparrow is a bird whose nest the cuckoo uses, according to
Shakespeare;

by the 18th century, the phrase "hedging the cuckoo" meant "hedging one's
bets", taking both sides.

Neither seems to directly relate to the Gothamite myth, but might have been
influenced by it.

DanG


On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 5:40 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com
> wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "hedge in the cuckoo"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks for sharing that intriguing information, Charlie. Are those
> citations available in a searchable database online?
>
> The entry for "Wise Men of Gotham" in the 1910 Encyclopaedia
> Britannica included an interesting variant of the tale. The Gothamite
> villagers did not use a hedge to entrap the cuckoo; instead, they
> joined hands in a perimeter surrounding the bird. The date for this
> story was not clear in the encyclopedia entry.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=3iEqAAAAYAAJ&q=thornbush#v=snippet&
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> As typical of the Gothamite folly is usually quoted the story of the
> villagers joining hands round a thornbush to shut in a cuckoo so that
> it would sing all the year.
> [End excerpt]
>
> Garson
>
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Charles C Doyle <cdoyle at uga.edu> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Charles C Doyle <cdoyle at UGA.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: "hedge in the cuckoo"
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Below is from a bit of off-list correspondence with Joel, which may be
> of interest to others.
> >
> > "Pen (or Hedge) the cuckoo" was (or became) one of those proverbial
> impossibilities--like "number the stars in the sky" or "carry water in a
> sieve" or "saw the air" or "make a rope of sand."
> >
> > --Charlie
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Charles C Doyle
> > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 1:55 PM
> >
> > Hey, Joel--
> >
> > First, I made a mistake:  Greville's poem, beginning "Away with these
> self-loving lads / Whom Cupid's arrow never glads,"  (or maybe it's "those
> self loving lads"--I'm quoting those lines from memory), was published
> prior to the rest of the "Caelica" sequence.  The poem appeared in John
> Dowland's _First Booke of Songes and Ayres_, 1597.  Here are the lines in
> question:  "For many run, but one must win, Fooles only hedge the Cuckoo
> in" (sig L1V).
> >
> > From _Merie Tales of the Made [sic] Men of Gotham_ by "A.B.," 1565:
> >
> > <<On a time the men of Gotam, wold haue pynned the Cockow, that she
> should sing all the yeare and in the myddest of the towne they dyd make a
> hedge (round in compas,) and they had got a Cocow, and put her in it and
> sayde, singe here all the yeare, and thou shalte lacke neyther meate nor
> drincke. The Cocow as soone as shee was set wyth in the hedge, flew her
> waye. A vengeaunce on her sayde they, we made not our hedge high ynough.>>
> (sig. A3v-A4r).
> >
> > So the proverbial phrase does not appear there--though I am guessing
> that it's already proverbial in the Greville poem.
> >
> > I hope this helps!
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Joel S. Berson [Berson at att.net]
> > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 1:11 PM
> > To: Charles C Doyle
> > Subject: [off-list]  Re: [ADS-L] "hedge in the cuckoo"
> >
> > Charlie,
> >
> > Do you know if the phrase itself is used in either of these?  Either
> > would antedate the OED's two quotations.
> >
> > And one would have to turn up an imprint from the early date -- which
> > may be difficult, since _Merrie Tales of the Mad Men of Gotham_ seems
> > not to appear in ESTC.
> >
> > Joel
> >
> > At 9/9/2013 10:26 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote:
> >>The old tale of the foolish Gothamites' effort to pen the cuckoo was
> >>published in 1565, in _Merrie Tales of the Mad Men of Gotham_, often
> >>attributed to Andrew Borde (1490?-1543).  Greville's poem, which (as
> >>Garson has noted) seems to use the expression proverbially, was
> >>first published (posthumously) in 1633.
> >>
> >>Charlie

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